Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM

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14 years 4 months ago #5013 by Room 055
Replied by Room 055 on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
Take it easy there BMS.

I'm still looking at the Armalite. The decision to spend the extra money for some more accuracy is part of the equation. As a shooter, it would be the plan to be able to match the accuracy of the rifle; however, that is a never ending battle. I haven't had anyone jump in yet and give any input on the SSASS other than price.

I'm not sure why you are so worked up?

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14 years 4 months ago #5017 by Eleven Bravo
Replied by Eleven Bravo on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
He's worked up because he probably thinks that we don't care about the Armalite and are just here to cause trouble for him. But why should we care about the Armalite when no one who is even member here is willing to jump in a put their personal experiences with the rifle or opinions?

I came here hoping to get some real solid opinions from people but the only person who post here is the same person who really doesn't want me here in the first place. Well BMS, you're getting what you want from me, I am leaving. And unlike you, I won't actually be coming back.

I can't believe that I know more information about a rifle that I don't even own than a site that is dedicated to a rifle and company.

I see people online here but the only one who seems to post is BMS. Good luck with this site because with what kind of activity goes on here you'll need it.

So, here you go BMS, one down one to go.

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14 years 4 months ago #5020 by BUILDING MY SASS
Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
There are only a hand full of members with a Super SASS, and so far I have not seen any of them on lately...so It is hard to give you info as to "how well they operate" when most of us have the standard AR-10s...
Sorry to disappoint you...
I was hoping other would have posted but I guess that is how it goes sometimes...
BMS

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14 years 4 months ago #5021 by Engineer
Replied by Engineer on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
BMS,

Did you build a SASS? My Semi-SASS is waiting on a decision on the gas system. You may remember, I am building a SASS except using the 10T heavy 20" barrel. I have the SASS gas block and tube, but don't want to thread the barrel for flash hider or suppressor. It will probably not be much difference, but I wanted to do the minimum to the barrel. I really want an adjustable gas system instead of two position, Suppressed/Normal. Have any ideas on that? I saw and adjustable gas tube for the AR-15, but nothing so far on the AR-10.

Unfortunately near me are only 100 yard ranges. My older 24" AR-10T can put 5 shots in a half inch at 100 yards. This is with Hornady match brass, Sierra 168 Match King and 4895. Lately my shop is getting CCI primers in standard grade, not BR. This is a still day with no mirage, waiting 5 or so minutes between shots. The problem being about 4th or 5th shot, good group going and I pull one out. Just casually shooting I shoot 1" to 1.5" 5 shot 100 yard groups.

I am hoping the new rifle is as good. I kept the older 10T. I also did find that the 18 power Nikon allowed me personally to do better than a Leupold at 10X. The Nikon will stay on the 24" 10T. The Leupold (I am almost sure I got a winning lottery ticket for that ultimate scope) will go on the Semi-SASS.

I have read one short report on the KAC. The sniper liked it in Iraq where you may take quite a few shots from one hide in a short period, it looks like an AR-15 so you don't stand out as much as a "Long", plus for close up work or certain tactics of movement the bolt gun is useless. The fellows who stuck with M24 or M40 had to also carry an M4 for these uses. "Australian Peel" is one tactic he mentioned. The only problem he had was that he let too much primer material build up in the firing pin area causing failure to fire. I feel pretty sure that DPMS, RRA, KAC and ArmaLite build guns that are great and some that because of variations in steel or a burr in a work holder don't shoot as well. My older rifle shoots well, compared to KAC that is a bit off I could say all KACs are trash, of course the opposite could be true. The snipers don't feel that the 7.62 x 51 is good enough beyond 1,000 yards. A 1.5 MOA rifle would keep a projectile inside a 15" circle at that distance. It would be better to decide that KAC won the competition so I have to have one (SASS) or I like ArmaLite because whatever comes to mind. If you get any .308 rifle that doesn't meet your requirements, take it to a gun show and try again.

Personally when the top guy in a company that builds rifles wins silver at Camp Perry using one of his company's rifles, then I feel good about their guns.
The free floating barrel is a must for repeatable accuracy, that is why the rifles that are not free-floated have the 2.0 to 2.5 MOA spec. The 10T is supposed to do 1 MOA. If not send it back.

Barry

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14 years 4 months ago - 14 years 4 months ago #5023 by BUILDING MY SASS
Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
No, mine is just a stock, sort of, A4 CB....but to me it's my sass...well until I can afford the uppper....I want to buy just the upper and get a pelican case to hold them both...Ah Dreams....
As for my accuracy...well if I could shoot a match as in one shot one target...I would probably come in at least second....as I said earlier...I have not been able to do repeat shots....but given I might only get to shoot a couple times a year, but that is going to change now...I am a member at a real range, it has been hard for me to really get good...and my reloads, well they shoot about the same so I know it is me....Your grouping sounds good to me...I guess it is all depending on what one wants...if I start competing...I think I will step up at least to the A4 upper...I don't want to mess with my C upper...I like it the way it is..

I hope the new one works out...some of the things on the sass are particulars to it...like the ceramic coated barrel...and of course the gas valve...and I think it is triple lined instead of double...will have to check the specs...
On the KAC...I read awhile back that a "sniper" over in the sand box did a 750 yard nail job on a "bad guy" and opened his mind to the light of day....That would be a great shot..
But as I said...from what I have found...it takes skill and practice to pull down those long range shots...of which I am lacking in both...but some day I want to try...got to get good a 400 yards first....My A4 C...works pretty good...so I am happy...Need a bigger scope though.... ;)
On the gas block...well that is the purpose of the SASS one...is to adjust the pressure for suppressed and non-suppressed fire.
Look back through the threads....some one a while back posted on this...and there is one out there with an adjustable screw to regulate the gas flow for different types of ammo...
Just my opinion...but if you are not going to use a can...then I would think on the other gas block...not dissen your build by no means...just trying to offer alternatives...
Look forward to seeing your creation...
BMS
Last edit: 14 years 4 months ago by BUILDING MY SASS.

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14 years 4 months ago #5024 by Room 055
Replied by Room 055 on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
Barry,

I'm a little confused about something you said. Are you referring to ground mirage or barrel heat mirage? 100 yard distances typically don't expose ground mirage to a shooter looking through a rifle scope, and it usually takes a pretty powerful spotting scope to identify it at short distances. To really see ground mirage, you have to focus on a point about 50% the distance to your target. If you are focused on your target, especially at only 100 yards, you most likely wouldn't see any shimmer. Even with a 16x rifle scope shooting at much longer distances, I often don't pick up on ground mirage until I use the 36x spotting scope and rotate the focus closer until the target goes blurry. I'm guessing what you are talking about is mirage off the barrel? With the exposed barrels on bolt actions, we use mirage guards to keep the view through the rifle scope from being distorted. With an AR platform, a different hand guard may be in order.

For checking MOA against claims, try not to wait 5 minutes between shots. The idea is to check POI shift on repeatable shots as the barrel heats up. In other words, you should be taking a cold bore shot followed by 4 more repetitive shots. By allowing the barrel to cool, you are influencing the exercise of checking MOA against what the rifle should be able to do. Otherwise, the number means nothing to someone that will use the rifle in combat. Even in benchrest shooting, you wouldn't have 5 minutes between shots. I'd be curious to see how she groups under these conditions?

The SASS is not a 1000 yard weapon platform. It's primary function in theater is as an urban sniper or patrol DM rifle. Your comment about the rifle mimicking a M-16 in appearance is correct. It has only replaced the M24/40 in these roles due the need for rapid fire and blending in, and only recently has proven accurate enough to replace the bolt actions in certain roles. The M24 lives on, and most are being re-chambered in 300WM. In a non-squad situation, the bolt action sniper has a need for rear security and rapid fire contact defense. This is why the bolt action sniper usually works in a two many team with the spotter providing those roles as well. The SA platform can give one man that ability to some extent; however, his rear is exposed when he's observing, collecting intel, or on target.

Outside of Afghanistan right now, there aren't too many uses for an anti-personnel 1000+ yard sniper rifle. I'm not saying that there aren't long shots being taken, and the 338 and 408 do have a purpose there. The 50 BMG is somewhat of a pariah. It was never really meant to be an anti-personnel platform due to weight and mobility issues. While the 338 and 408 have come into their own, the 50 still gets used.

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14 years 4 months ago #5025 by Engineer
Replied by Engineer on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
Here in South Texas you have humidity at 95% and 95 degrees, the sun shining on the grass does cause the target to "swim" a little. I don't know if it is a mental problem, could be that the target stays centered on the cross hairs, just need to convince myself to go ahead and shoot.

It appears that the sniper trainees record everything, first shot out of a cold barrel will be a out of the group a bit. I didn't normally record the first shot, but put it elsewhere on the target, then fire at long intervals. I will start recording the first shot also. Anyway, to get the older target rifle to shoot very tight groups I have found that a fouling shot then 5 widely spaced shots will get the best possible group. In reality a 1 or 1.5 MOA rifle would probably be adequate within the useful range of the .308.

One of the recent sniper books I read (trigger men?, I will check) had a couple of pages on the KAC rifle, so I was just repeating the interesting parts. Generally the sniper that described it was the only sniper that would choose the KAC at that time, others felt that a sniper rifle can only be a bolt.

I have repeated the request for advice on the gas system. I didn't read closely enough when I ordered the SASS gas system. It said something like "adjustable for suppressed or normal", and I took it as being continuously adjustable. On my bench I have the hand guard for the SASS, two position gas block and gas tube. The hand guard has a cut out for the SASS gas block. I have held up swapping them for the ones on the AR-10T top end as I would really like the continously variable system if I can find one MMSSHH was telling me it would take one tapped hole to go to an adjustable system. Unfortunately he hasn't logged in for quite a while.

The 10T top end has a triple lapped heavy barrel with no threads at the muzzle. I felt that the accuracy (especially with temperature changes in the barrel and what you screw on) would be a bit better in a barrel without the residual stresses from threading and the difference in temperature expansion carachteristics between the can or flash suppressor and barrel steel.

If you use list prices the 10T top end is about $700 cheaper than the SASS. For about $480 you get the fore end, gas block and tube. You can get to where I am in a couple of steps. The problem is that another $420 and a little work with the Arkansas stone you get a second rifle, where do you stop? The Nikon 6 x 18 with mil-dot is on sale for $309. I think it is a bargain, but with unlimited money I would buy a different scope.

The snipers in Iraq were going in 4 man teams, two shooters and two spotters. There was a bad outcome in one case where one pair were sleeping and the other pair were watching something when the bad guys came up the stairs and killed them all. The commanders' response was to send more people. The fellow who wrote about the SR-25 was trying to get to a hide with 7 people when they were hit with an IED while crossing a street. Two were killed, three seriously wounded and two wounded that were sent home for care. Trying to sneak a 7 man team, where only two were graduate snipers did not work well.

Once I decide on the gas system, I will finish it and get pictures out. It looks pretty mean. The Magpul PRS is a very good option for your lower. The exit pupil on the Nikon is fairly small (at 18x), so getting back to the same position is important. The PRS makes it pretty sure. The Harris bipod is nice, and would be good in the field, but on the bench it is best to use a standard rest and remove or at least fold up the bipod.

Thanks,
Barry

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14 years 4 months ago #5028 by Room 055
Replied by Room 055 on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
Barry,

Thanks for the explanation! I, too, am having a difficult time making the leap from bolt to SA in a precision platform. I think now that there are some accurate platforms available, the choice will be easier.

Do you hump your rifle long distances at all? What kind of weights are you seeing with it kitted out? i.e. scope, full mag, bipod, etc...

Thanks!

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14 years 4 months ago #5032 by BUILDING MY SASS
Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
Hey Room...does the weight on their site..KAC...M-110 SASS include the suppressor...it is 16 LBS where the Super Sass comes in at 14 lbs. Just wondering if you knew...
The SR-25 is 10.4 and the standard AR10 A4 is 9.6 and the AR-10 T is 9.4...with the SSB..
Mine depending on how equipped, with two 20 rnd mags loaded comes in a 12 to 13.5

Engineer...I checked...The Super Sass has a triple lapped barrel that is a ceramic coated 416R Stainless Steel Match.
So how all that comes into play other than what I have read...Would be nice to shoot one though...
I wish edge would jump in...he has that Super Sass Hybrid... :laugh:
BMS

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14 years 4 months ago #5034 by Engineer
Replied by Engineer on topic Re:Armalite Super SASS vs Knights Armament SR25EM
I have not actually weighed mine, I think the barrel is a little heavier than the normal SASS barrel. I think the SASS barrel is externally coated with ceramic so that the barrel doesn't bring attention to the shooter. Looking at the specs I think that the 10T (triple lapped stainless barrel) gets threaded at the muzzle and externally coated. I had read someone's post about inaccurate AR-10Ts in which he stated that the barrel was too tight and the flash hider was too tight according to his "gunsmith". Carrying a little further I thought that it is possible that leaving all mods off the muzzle might improve accuracy.

I shot bolt guns before this rifle, and had varying degrees of success with off the shelf guns. I did have a Shilen in 7MM STW Westerner that would shoot .5 moa. I had an off the shelf Ruger 77 heavy barrel .220 Swift that would easily beat 1" at 100 yards. There was also an old Model 70 Target built in 1948, rebarreled in 1956. That one had the throat burned badly, but seating out 220 grain Match King bullets to touch the rifling would get 1" groups at 100 yards. These are out of a few dozen bolt guns I have tried. I always shoot 5 shot groups.

The book I finished last night was "Trigger Men: Shadow Team, Spider-Man, the Magnificent Bastards, and the American Combat Sniper by Hans Halberstadt". It is a bit choppy, some things are repeated quite a few times, but there is some good information. It is more like a set of interviews with the snipers with a little filler material. I was not aware that many of the sniper teams did not have a graduate of one of the sniper schools. There is a story of a cook who was put on a team, killed quite a few bad guys and was wounded, when he returned to Iraq he went back to being a cook.

I hope everyone gets as much enjoyement out of their semi-autos as I have, no matter who built it.

Thanks,
Barry

I haven't carried this rifle other than to the bench and back. I think it would be lighter than an M4 and M24. The snipers in Iraq usually carried a lot of ammo for the M4, and 100 rounds or so for the sniper rifle. When they carried the Barret M107 at least one group disassembled the gun and spread it between the sniper and spotter, as they had to have the M4 along. The SR-25 would take care of both requirements. One of the snipers had to shoot a guy at 3 feet, not something the Barrett would do handily.

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