handloading for gas operated semiautos

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14 years 5 months ago - 14 years 5 months ago #4273 by a Guest
Replied by a Guest on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
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14 years 5 months ago #4274 by Hank in Arkansas
Replied by Hank in Arkansas on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
I'm not posting any more discussion on this topic. It's hopeless. MMSSHH has years of experience (or as Henry Ford once said, one year of experience repeated 30 years over), and has decided that Sierra doesn't know what it's doing. And now a semantics discussion of hard versus thick primers? The internet is a minefield of opinions, and mine's not worth more or less than others. I've simply suggested that newer handloaders READ the Sierra chapter, and try to learn something. If you read it and think its bunk, so be it. If you've got a magic formula for 7.62mm, go for it. If you want to load duplex loads, never crimp, seat bullets to rifling, whatever, and it works, OK by me.

Here's what I say to new reloaders: You'd better get some decent instuction, or at least teach yourself a lot by reading everything you can get your hands on. Then get OFF the internet and spend time with your hobby and other real people. Half the guys on the internet are sitting in Mom's basement in their underwear, blogging their life away. From now on, I lurk (read) and keep my fingers off the keyboard, at least on this forum. At least that'll give me more time to shoot!

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14 years 5 months ago - 14 years 5 months ago #4277 by a Guest
Replied by a Guest on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
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14 years 5 months ago #4279 by Louisiana Shooter
Replied by Louisiana Shooter on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
mmsshh wrote:

Dang Hank I am in agreement with you and you sound mad. The point is no ones going to ever agree on this subject its beating around the bush and not going any where on every form out there. What did you read into this its certainly not slam to you or any one but expresses the differancees in everyones process. Thats why I said mabe just let it go.MSH


What I took from this thread is that the Basics of loading for semi-autos requires more attention to certian things. Hank qualified the fact that he is an NRA Reloading instructor. In NRA courses NRA Instructors teach the basics of their discipline. Advanced techniques used by world class competitors are way beyond what can be mastered in a one or two day course, or by reading an article in a book. Many spend a lifetime and never master advaced techniques.

When first covering the basics of the various firearms related skill sets, techniques applicable to a broad number of shooters are applied with specific focus to those most important for the discipline. This is true of both classes and publications. I believe that Hank was attempting to make us all safer by promulgating useful safety information, not rant that everyone needed to do things his way. No basic technique can possibly be best for everyone seeking absolute mastery of a skill because we are all very different, with different strengths, weakesses, tools, and attitudes.

While advanced techniques benefit many shooters, and conceivably could be taught to a few novices, failing to get most new shooters well grounded in the fudamentals before moving to intermediate or advanced techniques like duplex loads could easily be catastrophic. In summary, doing things different from the manuals is not wrong, but teaching new reloaders that they can vary from proven methods before mastering the basics would be.

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14 years 5 months ago #4283 by Hank in Arkansas
Replied by Hank in Arkansas on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Yea, I guess last night I was in a bad mood. Nevertheless, I'm still going to lurk more and write less. I tried to simply respond to LA Shooters questions, and once again was off to the races. Whenever I've given handloading advice or opinions on the net, I've always had 3 goals in mind. First, safety. Second, targeting my comments with the understanding that most of the readers seem to be fairly inexperienced handloaders. Sure, there are super experts, but it's the rookies who are likely to get in trouble. Finally, third, I've tried to limit my comments to things I can back up with cited material from an extensive library of handloading literature, plus my personal experience. I never shoot from the hip, so to speak. I cannot count the number of times I've discussed the pros & cons of "small base sizing dies" on several forums, only to have a bunch of folks jump all over the topic based on loading for one gun. My point was to discuss the issues, not advocate that everyone change dies! Recently I criticized a particular gun design (another forum) based on a well reasoned opinion, with comparisons to competing designs. Man, you'd have thought I committed blasphemy! On another forum, I mentioned a hunting experience, and some anti-hunting nut went ballistic. It's just not worth it to get into flame wars, particularly with folks who often don't know what they're writing about.

Bear in mind, I'm NOT aiming my gripes at this particular forum, nor it's members. Rather, I'm griping about the net in general. I could write about the earth being round, and some fool would swear it's flat 'cause that's how it looks in Kansas! Some gun forums I now completely avoid. There are a couple that are decent. I still love my AR10, my M1A, Mini14, and a couple dozen other rifles, handguns and shotguns. And I still love handloading, but not arguing about it.

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14 years 5 months ago #4284 by Louisiana Shooter
Replied by Louisiana Shooter on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hank,

I will probably be training 100-200 new instructors a year for as long as I am able. Your posts here have brought issues to my attantion that I was not aware of. Every instructor I train will have valuable information that will make shooters everywhere safer. The only comment presently in the Basics of Reloading Curriculum says that not all loads in the manuals will reliably cycle some semi-autos. No mention is made that some loads may not be safe in semi-autos.

We will conduct some tests next month to see how much attention needs to be give to these issues, but I really believe that your efforts are making people safer. Please do not stop spreading good information because some folks disagree. With thousands of wanna-bees, has beens, and never were's out there spreading bovine produced fertilizer, we need all the help we can get to stem the tide.

MSH,

While experienced reloaders will develop processes that work best for them over time, consider where we would be if we had instructors telling reloading students that they could ignore the data and proven safe procedures and just do it in whatever way strikes their fancy.


Reloading is just like every other aspect of shooting, or any other sport, for that matter. The basics must be learned first.

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14 years 5 months ago #4285 by Hank in Arkansas
Replied by Hank in Arkansas on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
LA Shooter, I already mentioned that the internet has revealed that a lot more ARs are blown up than we ever thought about before. Recently I watched a video on Youtube (spelling???), in which a young fellow was trying out an AR15 from the bench on a range. It was obvious that rounds weren't going fully into the chamber. He dutifully beat on the forward assist until finally he got the gun to go "bang". It really went "bang", and blew up. I can only speculate on what went wrong, as there are many possibilities. However, the AR manufacturers say over and over that most of the destroyed rifles they see are due to faulty handloads.

I believe that SAAMI sanctions at least 3 different 5.56/.223 chamber designs, and no telling how many are sanctioned in other countries. Add in all the die variations, load variations, etc., and it's no wonder that some guys have ammo that isn't quite up to snuff, even if they are following a published recipe. Very experienced handloaders can sort it all out, and true experts can do it completely on their own, I guess. I was simply trying to point out that a source like the Sierra manual chapter on gas guns is a lot of good info for virtually any handloader. I honestly believe a guy can have 20 years experience with bolt actions, then try his hand at loading for a new AR, and experience catastrophe.

I cringe when I see someone post advice that, for them, was good, but clearly might not be in another shooter's gun. For example, in my individual AR10, the previous owner could not get it to feed his ammo. Thus I got a bargain. I experimented with 4 different die sets until I got the results I wanted. Would my settings work for everyone else? Heck, no. Yet when I relay my experience, all sorts of guys will say "no way". To each his own, I guess.

On another forum, I posted a possible powder problem in a particular handgun load; it was info I got from a reliable firearms manufacturing laboratory. Immediately, dozens of guys posted contrary opinions, but with no data to back them up. It was hopeless.

I mentor a few guys when they ask, but that's about it.

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14 years 5 months ago #4286 by bigwheel
Replied by bigwheel on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hank, don't get dismayed by flamers. There is more bs passed around on gun forums than in
Congress. Just let it roll off. Check out what doesn't sound right or is controversial. I have been
reloading for 41 years and learn new stuff everyday on the net. If someone has to flame your post
to disagree he's probably not able to back up his own facts or has too small a gun.

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14 years 5 months ago #4289 by Louisiana Shooter
Replied by Louisiana Shooter on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
mmsshh wrote:

Louisiana I think I said to help them out and go buy the book. Now it sounds that you all are ill that 3 national champions in long range and 1 other discipline are still scratching our heads at something that Sierra's boss threw at us which was smoke and mirrors because he didn't have the answer. We even had 2 of his loading manuals and showed him what the issues were. Your insinuation of I or anyone telling folks to ignore the book data is BS. Sierra is not beyond screwing up as all of us are.....

..... Like I said I do everything wrong by the book and pointed that out. MSH


MSH,

I do not insinuate anything. I write in clear and direct terms. In my job, failing to communicate effectively can get people killed. Does Sierra make mistakes? Sure they do! Everyone does. That is why firearms safety procedures are repetitively redundant. With respect to reloading data, beginners should use only data that is in 2 manuals from different publishers.

When a champion like yourself writes in a public forum that:"I do everything wrong by the book", they ARE effectively telling folks to ignore the books. If you can not understand the inadvertant consequences that seemingly small actions that community leaders make can easily have, you are not as smart as I think you are.

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