handloading for gas operated semiautos

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15 years 11 months ago #754 by featherblue
Replied by featherblue on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hank,

Please keep the thread going. You seem to be very knowledgable at reloading. I am new at reloading. Haven't done even one as yet. But I am very careful and want my stuff to be right and safe.

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15 years 11 months ago #755 by crux
Replied by crux on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hank,
Could you detail the tools you are using now to reload, and your level of satisfaction with each?

I've read a few "get started reloading" guides, and many of them recommend going out and starting with a basic kit. Much of that may be fine, but I'm a "cry once" kind of purchaser, and if there's something I know I'm going to be relying on later, I'd generally rather focus on getting it up front. Curious if you have any suggestions from that point of view.

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15 years 11 months ago #757 by Hank in Arkansas
Replied by Hank in Arkansas on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
I'll try to be helpful. But first, my disclaimer. Armalite (and virtually ALL gun makers) say "never use handloads, voids warranty, etc.". I cannot argue with their point of view. However, lots of us do handload, and I plan to continue a great hobby. But each handloader must accept that he and he alone is responsible for the quality of his ammo. It's kinda like basic gun safety. Negligent discharges are the shooters fault, not the gun manufacturers.

If you're new at it, I'd first invest in several good reloading manuals. Sierra, Hornady, Lyman, Speer, Barnes, etc., all have good ones. Buy several, read and take to heart. Quality equipment is expensive, but so is your rifle(s). RCBS, Redding, Lyman, Hornady, etc., all make good stuff. To save some money, most of those companies offer "get started kits" that are good value for the money. Also, lots of gun shops have used stuff that handloaders traded in to upgrade. I definitely would NOT buy a progressive press to start. You may want one later, but you'll still need a basic single stage press like the RCBS Rockchucker. My favorite dies come from RCBS and Redding, although I also have Lyman, Lee, and Hornady (all good). If you own other guns, load first for a simpler gun, like a bolt action rifle or a revolver. A bolt action will tolerate more variance. But it will chamber even a marginally resized case safely, due to the camming leverage of the bolt. The problem with the autoloader is it's tolerance of only "near perfect" rounds. Always make up a few dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) to check things out. Do they fit in the magazine, feed Ok, etc? Buy a gauge to check loaded rounds. Basically, it's like a gun chamber; drop the round in, and see if it fits properly, not too long, not too short, etc. (Most gauges come with instructions). Wilson, Dillon, Lyman(I think) are sources.

I use a Redding "small base" sizing die, but not all AR authorities recommend them. If you can afford it, buy both a "small base" and a regular sizing die. Your gauge and some dummy rounds from each die will soon reveal which chambers better in your rifle. By the way, a regular die tries to resize to "average" dimensions, while the small base die achieves "minimal" dimension. NEVER try to use loads in the AR that are "neck sized only". That's for the bolt action benchrest guys.

Calipers are cheap nowadays, so add that to the "must have" list. When you're first starting, load in small batches only. Don't strive for absolute "maximum" loads, but understand that AR rifles need near maximum loads to properly cycle. That creats some extra risk, because there's not much margin for error. Buy a scale (digital or balance beam) to weigh charges, and use it for everything you load until you're confident. Then you can switch to a powder measure.

I think it was Sierra that recommended one more thing. Buy a bullet puller. Think of it as a "handload eraser". If you find a batch you loaded isn't working out, don't try to "shoot it up" to get rid of it. Simply pull the bullets and start over. I like the collet type puller offered by RCBS. It doesn't even damage the bullets or cases.

I will try to post some additional loading information as I get more experience with my fairly new AR10B. Questions? I'll try to answer. But remember, you must accept responsibility for your own safety. I can only pass on my experience and ideas. As usual, everything that gets posted on the internet needs to be read with caution.

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15 years 11 months ago #758 by featherblue
Replied by featherblue on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Thanks for the post Hank. I think I'll start reloading 30-06 for my Rem 700 and get a feel for the process before I try any gas gun loading. First I'm going to acquire some loading manuals and do some reading!

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15 years 11 months ago #771 by weshowe
Replied by weshowe on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hank,

I use the same care and procedure loading for my bolt guns and gas guns. I'm pretty anal about it, but it produces good, accurate, safe ammo for my rifles. Let's face it, at the price of guns, optics, ammo, etc. the last think we want is to damage or destroy them with bad ammo.
It used to be that surplus ammo was generally good, but I've seen some in the past couple years that look like floor sweepings. If I buy surplus ammo it's got be be in it's original packaging and in excellent shape. Shooting mostly handloads it's not been an issue, but there is a need to have some good SHTF ammo that is reliable.
High primers have been the culprit in slam-fires, but if you inspect the ammo it should not be an issue. SOFT primers can do the same. For that reason I use Federal 210M's in my bolt actions because they are soft/sensitive. My gas guns get fed Winchester small/large rifle primers because of the harder primer. Check to make sure firing pins are in good shape, well rounded, and the correct length. All of the above will aid in eliminating slam fires.
My gas guns are loaded on Forester bench rest dies while the bolt guns use Redding competition dies that allow neck sizing only, but can have a body die that allows the shoulder and or case body to be "bumped" back. Allowing for easier chambering.

Hope this helps you folks.

Wes

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15 years 11 months ago #772 by Hank in Arkansas
Replied by Hank in Arkansas on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Amen to what you say. My comment about loading first for a bolt gun is NOT to imply that the same dilegence isn't required. Rather, it's just that bolt actions are much more tolerant of variances in case dimension. The AR10 has features built into it to try to avoid slam fires (see Armalite's tech notes on their web page). It's far less likely that a brand new AR10 or M1A is going to be "out of spec"; Sierra warns that it's more likely to occur with a 50 year old M1 that has been rebuilt a few times, or "parts" guns that are cobbled together. But switching to the safest possible primers is a good measure. I've acquired a bunch of the CCI#34 7.62-specific primers for that reason (along with the 5.56mm version).

A common thread runs thru all comments I see on web sites posted by experienced handloaders: namely, that they've learned to be very careful and thorough. I even advise guys that aren't inclined toward patient, precise work that maybe handloading isn't for them. I've witnessed four gun blowups, all due to mistakes by the gun owners in handloading. All four were due to either the incorrect powder, or a gross overload of the correct powder.

I also agree that surplus ammo needs to be checked out carefully. I'm convinced that a lot of the surplus stuff was surplused because it didn't pass inspection by some 3rd world army. From now on, if I'm looking for surplus at gun shows, I intend to carry my 7.62 gauge and check some samples first. Of course, that tells nothing about the propellant charge, but it's better than nothing.

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15 years 8 months ago #1139 by Hillbilly1053
Replied by Hillbilly1053 on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hey Folks:

I am 'moving over' to this thread because I think I have 'graduated, from my newbie thread that I had running about 'specs I am using'. And thanks, Hank, for stating your credentials. I appreciate your input.

I am not a 'cry once' buyer. I just seem to keep spending more and retiring a lot of new equipment. Cost of an education I guess.

Using the RCBS Precision Mic, I have found the average measurements of fired, new NOSLER brass to be 1.635.

If I have learned the technology correctly, using those meaurements, will I be sizing correctly for actual headspace of .002 ? In other words, adjust my sizing die to size my cases to a Precision Mic reading of 1.633 to allow the .002 in headspace?

Do these numbers make sense?

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15 years 8 months ago #1143 by Hank in Arkansas
Replied by Hank in Arkansas on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
I don't have the RCBS gauge you're using, but I think you're on the right track. With a bolt action rifle, lots of reloaders strive for the tightest possible chamber fit. The strong camming action of the hand operated bolt makes chambering possible. With an AR type rifle, that no longer makes sense. The ammo needs to be sized small enough to allow very easy chambering. The Sierra loading manual chapter I've cited elsewhere suggests that case life in service type rifles is very short, for several reasons: resizing to minimal dimensions, beat up rims, etc. That's a price we pay for the AR type action. It's not a fault, just a fact of life. One other comment. The reason I like the Lee crimp die is that it does not change cartridge dimensions in this last loading step. Taper crimping can do that. Too much taper crimping force can bulge the case neck or alter the shoulder; neither is a good thing. One reason I like the Wilson case gauge so much is that it's easy to drop every single round into it, at least until I'm convinced the dies are set up just right. By the way, small base dies shouldn't be changing headspace, just case diameter. But that can make a big difference in AR feeding.

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15 years 8 months ago #1152 by Hillbilly1053
Replied by Hillbilly1053 on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hey Again Folks...When to the range this weekend with 35 handloads and two boxes of Hornady 168Match BTHP. The rifle seems to like the Hornady loads. No misfeeds and accuracy was very good as well.

My reloads were accurate but I still had misfeeds. Some of the rounds got stuck in the chamber (four out of 35). I could pull them out using the charging handle but they were stuck...The loads were new Hornady brass with moly coated AMAX 168 grain bullets. I loaded seven rounds each of progressively increased Alliant RL15 from 138, 139, 140, 140.5, to 141 grains of powder. Like I said, accuracy was good but the interruptions of the misfeeds (fialed to fire then hard to extract) did impact my shooting and so, the groups.

The smallest groups that came from the reloads were with the 140 grains of RL15. There were actually a couple of shots where bullets went virtually into the same hole in the paper.

Then I deconstructed the Hornady match ammo when I got home. I measured EVERYTHING on five unfired rounds. Wrote down all the measurements of all five rounds... Then I used an inertial bullet puller. The brass measurements match my new Hornady brass, out of the box, in all dimensions except the neck (crimping?). The bullets are 168 gr Siera BTHPs and I weighed 41.3 grains of what I am fairly sure is Varget powder.

I have ordered a set of Small Base RCBS dies (recommended by other posters-thanks). Next batch coming up will be for me to try to build the Hornady rounds with the exception of the bullet. I am going to keep the AMAX bullets in the mix. Mainly because I have them. I may change to the Sierras, but it is ot the feeding, it is the extraction that I am having trouble with so I don't expect this to be the problem.

Just information for any others who are interested in my work...maybe green like me...Thanks to the group.

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15 years 8 months ago #1153 by featherblue
Replied by featherblue on topic Re:handloading for gas operated semiautos
Hillbilly,

Keep us posted on your load work up.

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