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Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine

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11 years 9 months ago #18775 by OleCowboy
Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine was created by OleCowboy
Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine
Mar 20, 2013
Military.com| by Matthew Cox
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"The Pentagon’s Inspector General is reviewing the Army’s Improved Carbine effort, questioning whether the service’s plan to replace the long-serving M4 Carbine is worth the new weapon’s $1.8 billion price tag.
The Defense Department’s watchdog released its testimony before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on March 19 as part of its effort to “reduce waste and improve efficiency” within the Defense Department.
“We are auditing the Army’s acquisition of the individual carbine program, which is an acquisition the department may want to re-evaluate,” said Lynne Halbrooks, principal deputy inspector general for DoD’s IG. “We expect to report concerns that DoD may not have an established need for this weapon nor developed performance requirements for the $1.8 billion acquisition.”"

read the rest: www.military.com/daily-news/2013/03/20/p...bine.html?ESRC=eb.nl

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11 years 9 months ago #18793 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine
I share the Pentagon IG's opinion on the IC. Until some 50 pound brain figures out how to more efficiently launch a projectile at a high rate of speed, with a high percentage of accuracy we will be stuck making incremental changes to a near 60 year old system.

IMOThe problem is not the rifle. The problem is the ammunition. If we were to resurrect the Mauser brothers or JMB and showed them the M4, they would know exactly what they would be looking at. Why? because ammunition - metallic cartridges - hasn't changed in over 100 years. Ammunition drives weapon design, not the other way around.

Caseless and Cased Telescoping Ammunition offer the technological leap forward that the services are seeking with the IC.

Here's a link to a quick overview from AAI:
www.aaicorp.com/pdfs/lsatps09-09-08.pdf
The following user(s) said Thank You: jtallen83

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11 years 9 months ago #18794 by Sharkey
Replied by Sharkey on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine
Interesting concept Leb. Have you got any more links or data on both the weapons and ammunition for this system?

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11 years 9 months ago #18800 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine

LebbenB wrote: I share the Pentagon IG's opinion on the IC. Until some 50 pound brain figures out how to more efficiently launch a projectile at a high rate of speed, with a high percentage of accuracy we will be stuck making incremental changes to a near 60 year old system.

IMOThe problem is not the rifle. The problem is the ammunition. If we were to resurrect the Mauser brothers or JMB and showed them the M4, they would know exactly what they would be looking at. Why? because ammunition - metallic cartridges - hasn't changed in over 100 years. Ammunition drives weapon design, not the other way around.

Caseless and Cased Telescoping Ammunition offer the technological leap forward that the services are seeking with the IC.

Here's a link to a quick overview from AAI:
www.aaicorp.com/pdfs/lsatps09-09-08.pdf


Caseless is far from new and the military has looked at many times. The problem is very complex and not easily solved. First the round would need to be shockproof and waterproof, then the challenge of shelf life. I do not for see it happening unless there is a break thru and I think before than ever happens a hand held laser with enough power to blast a hole thru you...

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11 years 9 months ago #18803 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine

Caseless is far from new...

Agreed. My first exposure to it was the HK G11 in the mid-80s. HK couldn't solve the round to round consistency problem it had due to powder flaking. The modern version has the powder cased in a polymer sheath that gets consumed during ignition.

I think before than ever happens a hand held laser with enough power to blast a hole thru you...

If the energy consumption problem can be overcome, railguns could become a reality.

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11 years 9 months ago #18804 by Siscowet
Replied by Siscowet on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine
My father was working on crude versions of ceaseless technology in the 60's as an ordnance engineer. A lot of which is detailed in a book called "Future Weapons" which you can get as an electronic book. Leb is right though, it would have to be a quantum jump in capability to make it worthwhile. My guess the next step will make body armor obsolete, but that is just a guess. The last quantum jump was to smokeless powder, which my grandfather told me came as a shock to his unit in the Spanish American War(yes I am that old.). I just hope it is us and not the Chinese who come up with it. No less than HK spent a lot of time on ceaseless technology over the years. Could never win the sugar plum contract though.

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11 years 9 months ago #18805 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine

Siscowet wrote: My father was working on crude versions of ceaseless technology in the 60's as an ordnance engineer. A lot of which is detailed in a book called "Future Weapons" which you can get as an electronic book. Leb is right though, it would have to be a quantum jump in capability to make it worthwhile. My guess the next step will make body armor obsolete, but that is just a guess. The last quantum jump was to smokeless powder, which my grandfather told me came as a shock to his unit in the Spanish American War(yes I am that old.). I just hope it is us and not the Chinese who come up with it. No less than HK spent a lot of time on ceaseless technology over the years. Could never win the sugar plum contract though.

I don't think they will care one way or another. The ChiComs are spending their (our) money on building their military infrastructure (tanks, planes, etc). No sweat on ChiCom invasion too many of them to sneak in the back door like Japan did. ChiCom will own us and they have NO desire to destroy the US. In fact at this point in time we might well be better off under ChiCom rule than the Obama dictatorship...at least the ChiComs are MEGA capitalists unlike bammy who hate America and hates capitalism...

The only possible ground war the ChiCom will fight is against their enemy the Ruskys, but I do not think that will happen, not sure either of them think they can rule the world, but 2 mega countries can, Ruskys and ChiCom and ALL they need to do is set back and wait while Obama slices and dices the US...

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11 years 9 months ago #18807 by Libertarian623
Replied by Libertarian623 on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine
We are going to see some changes in modern land warfare in the next 10 years , and energy consumption is not the problem, its energy storage. From what I have read recently , we are really close to making a quatum leap forward in capacitor technology. This will give the green light for shoulder fired rail guns. Then armor will be obsolete. Do a search over at Gizmag.com about capacitor tech, and you will see what we are getting close to. My nerd side is really showing , I can say that I'm pretty sure we could solve the capacitor thing in about 1-2 years with the right group. I'll shut up for now.

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11 years 9 months ago #18808 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine

Libertarian623 wrote: We are going to see some changes in modern land warfare in the next 10 years , and energy consumption is not the problem, its energy storage. From what I have read recently , we are really close to making a quatum leap forward in capacitor technology. This will give the green light for shoulder fired rail guns. Then armor will be obsolete. Do a search over at Gizmag.com about capacitor tech, and you will see what we are getting close to. My nerd side is really showing , I can say that I'm pretty sure we could solve the capacitor thing in about 1-2 years with the right group. I'll shut up for now.

Gizmag is good stuff, everyone should be on the feed...

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11 years 9 months ago #18810 by jtallen83
Replied by jtallen83 on topic Pentagon Watchdog Doubts Army Needs New Carbine
Whatever they're going to do I wish they would hurry, that way they can sell lots of that good Lake City surplus for cheap! :dance:

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