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Observations of owning an AR 10
12 years 11 months ago #9925
by dwco
Observations of owning an AR 10 was created by dwco
I had originaly purchased an AR 10 as a WTSHTF rifle. During the course of ownership I have some observations that I believe may help present and future owners. Keep in mind I am no expert.. I have just been hunting, shooting, reloading and messing with firearms for over 4o years.
My first impression with the rifle was positive dressed in the A2 build. The rifle fired and cycled with the recommended ammo as specified by Armalite. The fit and finish was exactly as advertised. I have since bought the parts from Armalite and turned the rifle into a flat top. Had to machine my own A2 barrel wrench
I wanted a hard hitting SHTF rifle. I belive contrary to what Armalite does. When it all goes South, you will need a rifle that will fire, and cycle with just about any round that will fit in the chamber. Access to premo military grade ammo will be hard to find...... because you will be getting shot at with it.......... :blink:
I have experimented with all differing loads with this rifle. From 130gr hollow points to Sierra 168gr MK. Factory loads from just about every manufacturer.
My rifle will not cycle reliably with any of the following. S&B 147gr FMJ, all the in-expensive Wolf and other imports. Most of the in-expensive American made FMJ. My rifle would not cycle reliably wth any powder faster than Win 748 regardless of bullet weight. Cycling with IMR 3031 was real erratic with any bullet weight.
As I said, I believe the rifle should cycle with just about anything that will fit in the chamber.. After all, that may be the only ammo you can find!!
Having a single shot AR platform is not my idea of a good time when faced with multiple un-friendlys BTDT....
So this is what I did to make my rifle cycle 99.9% of the time. I just removed one weight in the buffer and replaced it with a silicone slug of the same dimensions. I replaced the one closest to the plastic snubber... Quite elegant, easy to undo, and no "smithing" required.
This rifle will cycle with near 100% reliability with the aforementioned S&B 147 FMJ, All American made 147gr loads and heavier. I have yet to try the real cheap import stuff yet.
Reloads...168gr SMK over 44.3 of IMR4064, 165GR Sierra 44.5 of IMR4064. 130gr Speer HP over 50GR of Win 748. All the above are shooting nickel sized groups at 100yds. If you decide to you use this reloading data you do at your risk!!
Again, these are just my observations and I do not recommend you modify your rifle or use reloaded ammo either..
Just my .02
My first impression with the rifle was positive dressed in the A2 build. The rifle fired and cycled with the recommended ammo as specified by Armalite. The fit and finish was exactly as advertised. I have since bought the parts from Armalite and turned the rifle into a flat top. Had to machine my own A2 barrel wrench
I wanted a hard hitting SHTF rifle. I belive contrary to what Armalite does. When it all goes South, you will need a rifle that will fire, and cycle with just about any round that will fit in the chamber. Access to premo military grade ammo will be hard to find...... because you will be getting shot at with it.......... :blink:
I have experimented with all differing loads with this rifle. From 130gr hollow points to Sierra 168gr MK. Factory loads from just about every manufacturer.
My rifle will not cycle reliably with any of the following. S&B 147gr FMJ, all the in-expensive Wolf and other imports. Most of the in-expensive American made FMJ. My rifle would not cycle reliably wth any powder faster than Win 748 regardless of bullet weight. Cycling with IMR 3031 was real erratic with any bullet weight.
As I said, I believe the rifle should cycle with just about anything that will fit in the chamber.. After all, that may be the only ammo you can find!!
Having a single shot AR platform is not my idea of a good time when faced with multiple un-friendlys BTDT....
So this is what I did to make my rifle cycle 99.9% of the time. I just removed one weight in the buffer and replaced it with a silicone slug of the same dimensions. I replaced the one closest to the plastic snubber... Quite elegant, easy to undo, and no "smithing" required.
This rifle will cycle with near 100% reliability with the aforementioned S&B 147 FMJ, All American made 147gr loads and heavier. I have yet to try the real cheap import stuff yet.
Reloads...168gr SMK over 44.3 of IMR4064, 165GR Sierra 44.5 of IMR4064. 130gr Speer HP over 50GR of Win 748. All the above are shooting nickel sized groups at 100yds. If you decide to you use this reloading data you do at your risk!!
Again, these are just my observations and I do not recommend you modify your rifle or use reloaded ammo either..
Just my .02
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- Bob Downey
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12 years 10 months ago #10400
by OleCowboy
Good write up, thanks, which brings up another question...what is your recommended best ammo by mfg?
Replied by OleCowboy on topic Re: Observations of owning an AR 10
Do you know why this is the case?dwco wrote: I had originaly purchased an AR 10 as a WTSHTF rifle. During the course of ownership I have some observations that I believe may help present and future owners. Keep in mind I am no expert.. I have just been hunting, shooting, reloading and messing with firearms for over 4o years.
My first impression with the rifle was positive dressed in the A2 build. The rifle fired and cycled with the recommended ammo as specified by Armalite. The fit and finish was exactly as advertised. I have since bought the parts from Armalite and turned the rifle into a flat top. Had to machine my own A2 barrel wrench
I wanted a hard hitting SHTF rifle. I belive contrary to what Armalite does. When it all goes South, you will need a rifle that will fire, and cycle with just about any round that will fit in the chamber. Access to premo military grade ammo will be hard to find...... because you will be getting shot at with it.......... :blink:
I have experimented with all differing loads with this rifle. From 130gr hollow points to Sierra 168gr MK. Factory loads from just about every manufacturer.
My rifle will not cycle reliably with any of the following. S&B 147gr FMJ, all the in-expensive Wolf and other imports. Most of the in-expensive American made FMJ. My rifle would not cycle reliably wth any powder faster than Win 748 regardless of bullet weight. Cycling with IMR 3031 was real erratic with any bullet weight.
As I said, I believe the rifle should cycle with just about anything that will fit in the chamber.. After all, that may be the only ammo you can find!!
Having a single shot AR platform is not my idea of a good time when faced with multiple un-friendlys BTDT....
So this is what I did to make my rifle cycle 99.9% of the time. I just removed one weight in the buffer and replaced it with a silicone slug of the same dimensions. I replaced the one closest to the plastic snubber... Quite elegant, easy to undo, and no "smithing" required.
This rifle will cycle with near 100% reliability with the aforementioned S&B 147 FMJ, All American made 147gr loads and heavier. I have yet to try the real cheap import stuff yet.
Reloads...168gr SMK over 44.3 of IMR4064, 165GR Sierra 44.5 of IMR4064. 130gr Speer HP over 50GR of Win 748. All the above are shooting nickel sized groups at 100yds. If you decide to you use this reloading data you do at your risk!!
Again, these are just my observations and I do not recommend you modify your rifle or use reloaded ammo either..
Just my .02
Good write up, thanks, which brings up another question...what is your recommended best ammo by mfg?
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- ARMALITE TR
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12 years 10 months ago #10403
by ARMALITE TR
What you did was about the same as opening up your gas port a little. You took a weight out of the buffer thus allowing the BCG retract easier using lighter ammo. This also may affect using higher grain ammo as the BCG will retract much faster and possibly skipping over the next round and not feeding it. Thought you'd like to be aware of this.
Here's some info concerning ammo and the perception of some that their rifle should be able to eat anything they feed it.
TECHNICAL NOTE 57: AMMUNITION RELIABILITY
PURPOSE: To correct common misconceptions about ammunition.
BACKGROUND: ArmaLite® is continually amazed by civilian shooters who purchase high quality rifles and then fire the cheapest ammunition possible through them without regard to its source. These customers often say “This looks like a military rifle… it should be able to fire anything.” Worse yet, we often hear from Police departments that have trouble with ammunition purchased from the lowest bidder by purchasing officers who know nothing of the suitability of the ammunition for the rifle. We often find that political decisions or secondary technical decisions (i.e., to reduce ricochet or “overpenetration”) result in the selection of soft-point or other ammunition that is poorly suited to a self-loading firearm.
FACTS: Military grade rifles are not built to work reliably with “any” ammunition. In fact, quite the opposite is true in the U.S. When a firearm is designed for a U.S. military service it is specially tuned to provide optimum reliability with specific NATO standard cartridges. Any future use of another load (bullet weight, powder, velocity, etc) can reduce the ability of the rifle to work under stressful conditions such as fouling, sand, dust, mud, or moisture.
Example: ArmaLite® recently was contacted by an element deploying for the Middle
East that had been provided a commercial 147 grain full metal jacket cartridge that looked like military ammunition. Unfortunately, the ammunition’s brass was soft, which can interfere with extraction under adverse conditions. In addition, the bullets were seated approximately 1/10th of an inch too deep. This error interfered with feeding. The ammunition was suitable for training, but not suited for duty.
Different rifle types may perform differently with the same ammunition. We occasionally hear that “My FAL fires surplus ammunition reliably.” That’s normally because the FALs are produced largely of used, surplus parts that are loose by their very nature. In addition, problematic FALs can often be made to function merely by adjusting their gas mechanism to overpower the problem, albeit at the expense of reduced life expectancy.
The FAL was made and sold by a commercial firm throughout the world when no
competitors were present, and thus was found in the hands of many third-world forces. The adjustable FAL gas system was installed to allow the rifle to function with ammunition built in third-world factories, and the FAL Armorers tools and gages were designed to accommodate this variety. It was a system well suited to their market.
The non-adjustable M-14 and M-16 (Stoner system) were designed to accommodate
normal variations in high-quality NATO-standard ammunition without manual
adjustment. There is no free lunch: the adjustable FAL piston system (and the system of the M14) is imbalanced and prone to disruptive vibration, and is thus not as accurate as the Stoner system used in the ArmaLite. U.S. weapons are not generally adjustable to prevent user error in adjustments and shortened life of the rifle.
While the FAL and its adjustable gas system were among the best available in their time,no nation in the world that can afford to convert to a modern design like the Stoner system has continued to use the FAL as a first-line rifle.
Even different specimens of a single model may behave differently, especially with poor quality ammunition. A rifle with looser fitting but compliant parts, for example, may function with weak ammunition differently than an identical rifle with compliant parts that happen to be tighter. These differences normally work themselves out as the rifles both are broken in.
Different lots of a single type of ammunition can perform differently in even a single rifle. That’s why military forces maintain strong “surveillance” programs over ammunition and control it by lot. Lot to lot variations are especially important in surplus ammunition (which generally consists of rejected lots).
There’s a reason surplus ammunition was surplused. While some lots may be
wonderful, others may be horrible. The purchaser is well advised to sample small lots of surplus ammunition, and then purchase additional quantities of the same lot number if itproves reliable.
Both ammunition and rifles change over time. When ammunition ages or is
updated over time, its performance with some rifles may change. When rifles are
updated, their performance with some loads may change.
When AR-10s were first shipped to the Middle East in late 2002, for instance,
ArmaLite® conducted a series of evaluations that led to fine-tuning that has made our rifles very tolerant of adverse conditions when using the military ammunition used by the U.S. Armed Forces and NATO. We also tested important commercial rounds that are commonly used by Police forces. The 2003 ArmaLites therefore may function differently with some ammunition, especially weakly-loaded surplus ammunition, than earlier rifles did. The advantages gained are worth the effort.
RECOMMENDATIONS: A rifle is part of a gun-ammunition-shooter system. Use only high quality, NATO Specification ammunition in your ArmaLite®, especially if you use it as a duty rifle.
Avoid the use of soft-point ammunition in self-loading rifles if possible. If not, then select ammunition from a lot that proves as reliable with the rifle as possible.
© 2003 ArmaLite, Inc. All rights reserved. Reformatted 110404.
TR
ArmaLite
Replied by ARMALITE TR on topic Re: Observations of owning an AR 10
dwco wrote: I had originaly purchased an AR 10 as a WTSHTF rifle. During the course of ownership I have some observations that I believe may help present and future owners. Keep in mind I am no expert.. I have just been hunting, shooting, reloading and messing with firearms for over 4o years.
My first impression with the rifle was positive dressed in the A2 build. The rifle fired and cycled with the recommended ammo as specified by Armalite. The fit and finish was exactly as advertised. I have since bought the parts from Armalite and turned the rifle into a flat top. Had to machine my own A2 barrel wrench
I wanted a hard hitting SHTF rifle. I belive contrary to what Armalite does. When it all goes South, you will need a rifle that will fire, and cycle with just about any round that will fit in the chamber. Access to premo military grade ammo will be hard to find...... because you will be getting shot at with it.......... :blink:
I have experimented with all differing loads with this rifle. From 130gr hollow points to Sierra 168gr MK. Factory loads from just about every manufacturer.
My rifle will not cycle reliably with any of the following. S&B 147gr FMJ, all the in-expensive Wolf and other imports. Most of the in-expensive American made FMJ. My rifle would not cycle reliably wth any powder faster than Win 748 regardless of bullet weight. Cycling with IMR 3031 was real erratic with any bullet weight.
As I said, I believe the rifle should cycle with just about anything that will fit in the chamber.. After all, that may be the only ammo you can find!!
Having a single shot AR platform is not my idea of a good time when faced with multiple un-friendlys BTDT....
So this is what I did to make my rifle cycle 99.9% of the time. I just removed one weight in the buffer and replaced it with a silicone slug of the same dimensions. I replaced the one closest to the plastic snubber... Quite elegant, easy to undo, and no "smithing" required.
This rifle will cycle with near 100% reliability with the aforementioned S&B 147 FMJ, All American made 147gr loads and heavier. I have yet to try the real cheap import stuff yet.
Reloads...168gr SMK over 44.3 of IMR4064, 165GR Sierra 44.5 of IMR4064. 130gr Speer HP over 50GR of Win 748. All the above are shooting nickel sized groups at 100yds. If you decide to you use this reloading data you do at your risk!!
Again, these are just my observations and I do not recommend you modify your rifle or use reloaded ammo either..
Just my .02
What you did was about the same as opening up your gas port a little. You took a weight out of the buffer thus allowing the BCG retract easier using lighter ammo. This also may affect using higher grain ammo as the BCG will retract much faster and possibly skipping over the next round and not feeding it. Thought you'd like to be aware of this.
Here's some info concerning ammo and the perception of some that their rifle should be able to eat anything they feed it.
TECHNICAL NOTE 57: AMMUNITION RELIABILITY
PURPOSE: To correct common misconceptions about ammunition.
BACKGROUND: ArmaLite® is continually amazed by civilian shooters who purchase high quality rifles and then fire the cheapest ammunition possible through them without regard to its source. These customers often say “This looks like a military rifle… it should be able to fire anything.” Worse yet, we often hear from Police departments that have trouble with ammunition purchased from the lowest bidder by purchasing officers who know nothing of the suitability of the ammunition for the rifle. We often find that political decisions or secondary technical decisions (i.e., to reduce ricochet or “overpenetration”) result in the selection of soft-point or other ammunition that is poorly suited to a self-loading firearm.
FACTS: Military grade rifles are not built to work reliably with “any” ammunition. In fact, quite the opposite is true in the U.S. When a firearm is designed for a U.S. military service it is specially tuned to provide optimum reliability with specific NATO standard cartridges. Any future use of another load (bullet weight, powder, velocity, etc) can reduce the ability of the rifle to work under stressful conditions such as fouling, sand, dust, mud, or moisture.
Example: ArmaLite® recently was contacted by an element deploying for the Middle
East that had been provided a commercial 147 grain full metal jacket cartridge that looked like military ammunition. Unfortunately, the ammunition’s brass was soft, which can interfere with extraction under adverse conditions. In addition, the bullets were seated approximately 1/10th of an inch too deep. This error interfered with feeding. The ammunition was suitable for training, but not suited for duty.
Different rifle types may perform differently with the same ammunition. We occasionally hear that “My FAL fires surplus ammunition reliably.” That’s normally because the FALs are produced largely of used, surplus parts that are loose by their very nature. In addition, problematic FALs can often be made to function merely by adjusting their gas mechanism to overpower the problem, albeit at the expense of reduced life expectancy.
The FAL was made and sold by a commercial firm throughout the world when no
competitors were present, and thus was found in the hands of many third-world forces. The adjustable FAL gas system was installed to allow the rifle to function with ammunition built in third-world factories, and the FAL Armorers tools and gages were designed to accommodate this variety. It was a system well suited to their market.
The non-adjustable M-14 and M-16 (Stoner system) were designed to accommodate
normal variations in high-quality NATO-standard ammunition without manual
adjustment. There is no free lunch: the adjustable FAL piston system (and the system of the M14) is imbalanced and prone to disruptive vibration, and is thus not as accurate as the Stoner system used in the ArmaLite. U.S. weapons are not generally adjustable to prevent user error in adjustments and shortened life of the rifle.
While the FAL and its adjustable gas system were among the best available in their time,no nation in the world that can afford to convert to a modern design like the Stoner system has continued to use the FAL as a first-line rifle.
Even different specimens of a single model may behave differently, especially with poor quality ammunition. A rifle with looser fitting but compliant parts, for example, may function with weak ammunition differently than an identical rifle with compliant parts that happen to be tighter. These differences normally work themselves out as the rifles both are broken in.
Different lots of a single type of ammunition can perform differently in even a single rifle. That’s why military forces maintain strong “surveillance” programs over ammunition and control it by lot. Lot to lot variations are especially important in surplus ammunition (which generally consists of rejected lots).
There’s a reason surplus ammunition was surplused. While some lots may be
wonderful, others may be horrible. The purchaser is well advised to sample small lots of surplus ammunition, and then purchase additional quantities of the same lot number if itproves reliable.
Both ammunition and rifles change over time. When ammunition ages or is
updated over time, its performance with some rifles may change. When rifles are
updated, their performance with some loads may change.
When AR-10s were first shipped to the Middle East in late 2002, for instance,
ArmaLite® conducted a series of evaluations that led to fine-tuning that has made our rifles very tolerant of adverse conditions when using the military ammunition used by the U.S. Armed Forces and NATO. We also tested important commercial rounds that are commonly used by Police forces. The 2003 ArmaLites therefore may function differently with some ammunition, especially weakly-loaded surplus ammunition, than earlier rifles did. The advantages gained are worth the effort.
RECOMMENDATIONS: A rifle is part of a gun-ammunition-shooter system. Use only high quality, NATO Specification ammunition in your ArmaLite®, especially if you use it as a duty rifle.
Avoid the use of soft-point ammunition in self-loading rifles if possible. If not, then select ammunition from a lot that proves as reliable with the rifle as possible.
© 2003 ArmaLite, Inc. All rights reserved. Reformatted 110404.
TR
ArmaLite
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