Getting frustrated with the ar10T

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10 years 5 months ago #40151 by foxhunter
Getting frustrated with the ar10T was created by foxhunter
I own 3 AR10T's. A rifle and 2 carbines all mounted with Nightforce scopes. The rifle does ok. The carbines, not so much. I am getting frustrated with them
The Armalite AR10 A4 I gave my daughter would shoot 1.5-2 MOA all day at 100 yds with open sights.It is a great gun.It didn't care what ammo I put in it either.
I can't do better than that with the AR 10t's(frequently over 2 moa at 100 yds) and if I fire too many rounds without cleaning ( I am talking 50 or so) they may jam.
I frequently am using reloads, but I am shooting 3/4-1 moa with those same reloads out of a $400 Savage Hog hunter bolt gun with 16 inch barrel.
Given their lack of reliable accuracy with differnt loads and their willingness to jam when they get a little dirty, I would sure be hesitant to bet my life on one of these in a firefight.

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10 years 5 months ago #40154 by JustMe
Replied by JustMe on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T
Fox,
Sorry to hear about your AR-10T results. My AR-10T is a 20", 11.25 twist, with Giessel trigger mod. I haven't had much luck with sub-MOA groups from factory loads, but to be fair, I have only used $20 boxes of Winchester PowerPoint 150gr & 180gr White box ammo and Rem' 150gr CoreLokt ammo during break in. Both resulted in 1.5"-4" groups. 150 gr grouped better than 180 gr.

I immediately went to reloads after the 200 round break in. I've consistently gotten .5-.75 groups at 100 yds using 155gr Palma Sierra Match King bullets and Varget powder. I shoot off a solid bench using both a bipod front and bag aft rest and also using bags front and aft -- no vice. I get comparable results using both rests. I had one jam during break in, but haven't had a jam after the break in using reloads. Like you, I also get tighter groups from my bolt guns (243, 30-06, 300WMag Win Model 70s).

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10 years 5 months ago #40156 by NightForce
Replied by NightForce on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T
I've done a bit of work to two of my bolt guns and this combined with specific handloads I can shoot 1-hole groups at 100 yards every day of the week. Not to brag but bolt guns are generally pretty accurate right out of the box and with a few bucks, a little work, and practice, 1-hole groups are achievable.

You mention the rifle jams after 50 or so rounds. Would you mind elaborating on the type of jam you're experiencing?

Not ejecting spent shell
Not stripping a fresh round from the magazine
Bolt not closing and locking up on a live round
Not chambering the round

When you clean the rifle are you stripping everything down?
Are you finding excessive amounts of fowling?
Is the bore excessively fowled?
What are you seeing?

Is this both carbines?
How many rounds have you put through these rifles?
Does this happen regardless of ammunition?
The following user(s) said Thank You: OleCowboy

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10 years 5 months ago #40159 by Siscowet
Replied by Siscowet on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T
Good questions NF. Foxhunter, I will be interested to wring out my AR10T carbine. So far at 100 yards I have gotten .75 to 1.5 MOA groups with M118lr and FGMM. But I have only put 50 rounds through it. (No jams). Will be comparing it to my 20" AR10A4, which I know is at least a 1 MOA rifle.

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10 years 5 months ago #40175 by Libertarian623
Replied by Libertarian623 on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T
Fox are you keeping a data book of your shooting on those rifles, if not you should start. It took a great deal of experimentation with my weapon to find the right round. (1 in 10 twist) It likes heavy bullets, I used 180gr nosler particians in last years competition, they shoot sub MOA out to 400meters, who would have thought. Then I found Winchester 168gr silvertips, now they are even better out to 500-600( still working on that load for this years competition). But the thing is the weapon is way more accurate than I am. Last year I shot 600-800 rounds out of my LAR-8 (2-3K dry fires) and by the end of the year was in tune with the weapon. Had no problem hitting 1 MOA targets out to 700m with NO WIND. It takes a lot to shoot a semi- auto accurately , certainly a greater degree of variables to concern yourself with. Bolt guns seem like childs play by comparison now. You should read the posts that I wrote last year about shot set up, eye relief and some of the others, they may be helpful to you. Start with the basic's and work out all the kinks and see what you come up with. Each rifle is different so start with one and master it then move on and adapt to the subtle differences in the next one. Each one has to be driven in a slightly different way. Hope this helps, if I can help in any way please PM me.

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10 years 5 months ago #40184 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T
Fox this may only be me, but this would perturb me to no end. I would need to know why and can I affect the outcome if I do.

1) Buy several boxes of good, very good quality ammo. My guess is you will need about 50 rds per gun

2) Good shooting range and bench, you need to remove as much human error as you can, so buy some sandbags

3) Now shoot for accuracy, slow in 3 rd shot groups and mark them on the target.

If you have made a good effort to remove human error, practiced good shooting skills then you will know just how inaccurate they really are.

At this juncture you can begin to identify what may or may not be the issue(s). Reading your post I think you are saying your weapons are very erratic. If so you may be able to solve the problem.

50 rds should not cause a weapon to jam up. I had an ole 10/22 I used for years, put at least 25,000 rds down the pipe and never in well over 15 years cleaned that gun, passed it on to the son of a friend who is still using it to this day. It never failed in any way in all those years. Sure it was as time went by not the most accurate gun but it never failed me or failed to kill snakes and other varmints that I used it for.

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10 years 5 months ago #40186 by foxhunter
Replied by foxhunter on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T

NightForce wrote: I've done a bit of work to two of my bolt guns and this combined with specific handloads I can shoot 1-hole groups at 100 yards every day of the week. Not to brag but bolt guns are generally pretty accurate right out of the box and with a few bucks, a little work, and practice, 1-hole groups are achievable.

You mention the rifle jams after 50 or so rounds. Would you mind elaborating on the type of jam you're experiencing?

Not ejecting spent shell
Not stripping a fresh round from the magazine
Bolt not closing and locking up on a live round
Not chambering the round

When you clean the rifle are you stripping everything down?
Are you finding excessive amounts of fowling?
Is the bore excessively fowled?
What are you seeing?

Is this both carbines?
How many rounds have you put through these rifles?
Does this happen regardless of ammunition?




The older carbine has had about 500 rds through it. I believe some of my issues have been with reloads, as I went through a learning curve with these AR's on getting it right.
I have been using 165gr Berger and Hornady 165gr AMAX. Mostly the Hornady. I have experimentd with Varget and IMR 4895. I also have used mostly Winchester brass, but also some military once fired brass(43gr imr in the winchester brass and 41.5 gr in the military brass) I have put about 50 rounds through the new one. The old one is the one jamming.
After about 50 rds this last time when I fired I just got a puff of smoke and the bullet did not eject. I pulled it out and there was no mark on the primer and the bullet was still seated. I shook it and verified there was powder in this reload. The next 5 rounds cycled and did not fire. Then I decided to remove the upper and clean and inspect.I could not get it open. finally, with no shells in, I repeatedly bulled the bolt hadnle back and let it go. each time after I would try to open the rifle but couldnt. Ater about 10 tries pulling and releasing the bolt, the bolt jammed. At this point I held the bolt and jammed the butt into the ground to release the bolt. It did. And then when I tried to open the gun, it did. I thoroughly cleaned it. Did not see any unusual fouling.
I took it back out and fired a 3 shot 100 yd group of 2 inches.
I shoot sitting at a bench, forend resting on a rest, butt of stock on a sandbag.

I think at this point I really need to seperate possible issues with reloads from gun issues, so I am going to only use factory ammo for the next 100 - 200 rds and see what happens with the jamming issues.
Given that the reloads shoot very well in a bolt gun, still makes me concerned about accuracy in the AR's

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10 years 5 months ago #40195 by Siscowet
Replied by Siscowet on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T
Where do you store your opened powder cans? Your neck of the wood gets mighty humid. Also, check online to see if there are issues with the lot # and make of primer you are using. A google search should suffice to turn up any possible problems. Ditto with your lot number of powder. That load should serve to cycle the bolt.

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10 years 5 months ago #40198 by foxhunter
Replied by foxhunter on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T
I reload and keep opened cans in my basement, temp a constant 68 degrees, humidity typical of a basement

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10 years 5 months ago #40199 by NightForce
Replied by NightForce on topic Getting frustrated with the ar10T

foxhunter wrote:
The older carbine has had about 500 rds through it. I believe some of my issues have been with reloads, as I went through a learning curve with these AR's on getting it right.

I have been using 165gr Berger and Hornady 165gr AMAX. Mostly the Hornady. I have experimentd with Varget and IMR 4895. I also have used mostly Winchester brass, but also some military once fired brass(43gr imr in the winchester brass and 41.5 gr in the military brass) I have put about 50 rounds through the new one. The old one is the one jamming.

After about 50 rds this last time when I fired I just got a puff of smoke and the bullet did not eject. I pulled it out and there was no mark on the primer and the bullet was still seated. I shook it and verified there was powder in this reload.

The next 5 rounds cycled and did not fire. Then I decided to remove the upper and clean and inspect.I could not get it open. finally, with no shells in, I repeatedly bulled the bolt handle back and let it go. each time after I would try to open the rifle but couldn't. After about 10 tries pulling and releasing the bolt, the bolt jammed.

At this point I held the bolt and jammed the butt into the ground to release the bolt. It did. And then when I tried to open the gun, it did. I thoroughly cleaned it. Did not see any unusual fouling.

I took it back out and fired a 3 shot 100 yd group of 2 inches.

I shoot sitting at a bench, forend resting on a rest, butt of stock on a sandbag.

I think at this point I really need to separate possible issues with reloads from gun issues, so I am going to only use factory ammo for the next 100 - 200 rds and see what happens with the jamming issues.

Given that the reloads shoot very well in a bolt gun, still makes me concerned about accuracy in the AR's


Foxhunter,

The problems you mention seem to point to handloads. I'm willing to bet those rounds were not chambering fully therefore not able to lock the bolt. When this happens the rear of the bolt carrier is partially inside the buffer tube making it impossible to open the upper receiver assembly.

What some AR's benefit from is using Small Base sizing dies vs standard resizing dies. I'm willing to bet if you substitute the Small Base sizing die into your process these feeding issues in the new carbine will disappear...

I'm not surprised that those same loads shoot well in a bolt gun...

Just something to think about....

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