AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc

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13 years 3 months ago #23746 by OleCowboy
AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc was created by OleCowboy
I took this from another post by LebbenB. I did not want to get to far out of the thread so I started this one:

"308 ARs break down into three broad catagories - Armalite pattern, Knight's Armament pattern and RRA...

Knight's Armament Corp. has become the de facto standard... rifles closely adhere to the original 1950's AR10 design and magazine. Other companies following this pattern are LMT, LaRue, DPMS/Bushmaster/Remington, Smith and Wesson, CMMG, Sig (piston), LWRCi (piston), and POF-USA (piston), among others...."

I take a face value the post, but this now begs the question(s):

1) HOW is the AR design different from the others (piston design not relevant)

2) In the AR vs the other designs which seem to be more common are the differences based upon improved technology, improved design based upon historical use and applications. This is not meant to be a us vs them but rather design considerations that were meant to serve a purpose.

It may be that no one has all the answers but it would be a good discussion and give us more knowledge about our weapon...

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13 years 3 months ago #23750 by Lizardette
Replied by Lizardette on topic AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc
I talked with a friend of mine about this awhile ago. She's even more of a gun nut than I am, mostly regarding the technical stuff.

What I heard from my friend was that when Armalite set out to make the modern AR10, they're first focus was on making a superior rifle. They wanted it to work right. Compare that to DPMS, for example, whose focus primarily seems to have been parts commonality between the AR15 and their LR308.

I actually got the chance to talk to some Armalite representatives at a gun show once. Among other things, they were showing off their entry into the SASS competition. What I was told there was that they tried to optimize everything for the highest degree of functionality.

That aside, these are the actual differences that I know of:

- upper receiver shape (in particular at the rear)
- magazines, of course
- barrels are triple lapped and optionally chrome lined (I don't know that anyone else offers chrome lined .308 AR barrels, except Criterion)
- two stage trigger comes standard
- availability of an A2 carry handle upper (Rock River does this too, but I'm pretty sure their parts don't interchange with anyone else's)

I've not had the chance to compare internal parts like the bolt carrier group, charging handle, barrel nut, etc. but I imagine there are differences.

As far as improvements based on reports from use, I would KAC probably has gotten the most feedback. LM&T should be following right along shortly. They're the only two I know of that actually have military contracts.

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13 years 3 months ago #23754 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc
Interesting:

Commonality between the AR 5.56 and 7.62 platforms while at first blush makes sense but does it really. And how much parts interchangeability is there really? Also is there engineering or functional compromises as a result of that objective.

All too often we lose sight of the goal and start placing more emphasis on the objectives. In example:

Goal: 7.62 weapon platform

Parameters: ( you state any known constraints)

Objectives: Max parts interchangeability with the AR 15/M4 battle rifle platform

Remember Objectives are subsets to the goal, the goal is generally the mission statement. When you put the objectives ahead of the goal then you can expect less than excellent results...

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13 years 3 months ago #23758 by Lizardette
Replied by Lizardette on topic AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc
Hmmm...

As far as parts commonality goes:

- buttstock
- receiver extension
- pistol grip
- hammer
- trigger
- disconnector
- safety
- most of the pins in the lower receiver
- front sight base/gas block
- gas tube
- handguards*
- sling swivels
...

That appears to be it, as far as I can see.

* I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't just switched the A2 type handguards between a Bushmaster XM15-E2S and a DPMS LR-308.

A lot of those are relatively minor in importance to function, but being able to use aftermarket parts that already exist is great for the consumer. If the company also makes Ar15's, not having to set up two production lines for every part (one for .223 rifles and one for .308 rifles) is good too.

Does it make for the "best" rifle? I honestly have no idea.
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13 years 3 months ago #23759 by mrraley
Replied by mrraley on topic AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc
I wish this was at a bar having this conversation...

There is so much to go over.

We are all in agreement, the "Original" ArmaLite and Eugene Stoner, from 1950's started this whole disease that we currently have.

After the fall or collapse of ArmaLite and patents being sold to Colt. ArmaLite took a back seat for a long time. In that process, Mr. Stoner teamed up with Reed Knight to create Knight's Armament.

So now you will see some similarities between ArmaLite and Knight's.

Knight's stayed as close to the original design. In 1994, the current owner of ArmaLite, Mr. Westrom, purchased as much of the rights and patents as possible and some of the original machinery too.

At that time, was the beginning of the "Great magazine ban". Since magazines for the AR-10 were hard to come by and original ArmaLite waffle magazines were almost non-existent, creating new magazines was out of the question.

So the next best available thing was to either us magazines that were already "grandfathered in" and not banned. You had to either use a U.S. magazine or import a metric magazine already in existance. While Mr. Westrom coming from a U.S. ARMY background, decided to stay American and use the U.S. magazines of the M14. In doing this, ArmaLite had to redesign the lower and upper from the original design to accept the modified M14 magazines to be able to have a standard 20 round capacity during the ban time frame.

These were the GEN I with a spring loaded plunger to activate the bolt stop. It took some time to work out the mechanicals of the rifle so it would operate as designed. Since the ban has lifted, ArmaLite has a new design of magazine called their GEN II. New magazine body with a rib up the back to allow a longer follower and no plunger. In doing so a new bolt stop was also designed to work better with the new magazines.
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13 years 3 months ago #23761 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc
This is good stuff, good to know the background, history and whys and wherefore...thanks to all

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13 years 3 months ago #23764 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic AR and LaRue, Knight, DPMS etc

Lizardette wrote: Hmmm...

As far as parts commonality goes:

- buttstock
- receiver extension
- pistol grip
- hammer
- trigger
- disconnector
- safety
- most of the pins in the lower receiver
- front sight base/gas block
- gas tube
- handguards*
- sling swivels
...

That appears to be it, as far as I can see.

* I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't just switched the A2 type handguards between a Bushmaster XM15-E2S and a DPMS LR-308.

A lot of those are relatively minor in importance to function, but being able to use aftermarket parts that already exist is great for the consumer. If the company also makes Ar15's, not having to set up two production lines for every part (one for .223 rifles and one for .308 rifles) is good too.

Does it make for the "best" rifle? I honestly have no idea.

Certainly enough in common to represent a financial savings to the taxpayer and still deliver on a 7.62 battle rifle...

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