Te AR 10 VS the M14

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13 years 7 months ago #7114 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Re: "7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment .."
Yup...This thread has drifted.

... even though 6.8 SPC [ at least here in Canada ] costs even more.

Same here in the 'States. I really want to like 6.8. I like it's terminal performance out to 600m. I like that all I need is an upper assembly and mags. But I can't get past the price and limited ammo availability. $1 USD per round is too rich for me. If you aren't a handloader, you practically have to become one if you want to shoot 6.8 regularly. And hand loading doesn't take the edge off the cost that much either. I can make 5.56 for about $0.19/round. 7.62 costs me $0.40. I estimate 6.8 would cost me ~$0.75/round. Given the volume that my family and shoot, 6.8 fails my cost-benefit analysis.

...The 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .300 Whisper, .300 Blackout, and the BIG bore "THUMPER" AR 15 cartridges did NOT develop in a vacuum. These cartridges were created because there was a perceived need for more power for the AR 15 in CQB AND in general duty roles.


As most know, 5.56 relies on high MV and bullet yaw/fragmentation for it's terminal effectiveness. The M4 has a 14.5" barrel and with the attendant loss of MV, M855 Ball began exhibit less than stellar performance due to it's construction. The steel penetrator inside each bullet tends to retard deformation and fragmentation at speeds less than 2700 FPS.

5th SFG and the AMU's solution was 6.8 SPC. NSW's answer was Mk262 Mod 1, a 77 gr OTM w/cannelure originally designed for the Mk12 SPR. The round gives superior performance against personnel at the sacrifice of barrier blind penetration. Last year, Big Army started issuing M855A1, a 62gr bi-metal (tin-bismuth alloy topped by a steel penetrator) which is supposed to offer improved performance across the spectrum. Time will tell...

You mentioned 6.5 Grendel. If you're ever in VA, pop by Radford and see Bill Alexander at his shop in the Radford Army Ammunition Plant (He leases work space there.) You're guaranteed an interesting conversation at the very least. The biggest problem with 6.5 is Bill Alexander himself, the cheeky Brit. He's very picky about who he releases the tech specs of his cartridge to. While this makes him wealthy by being virually the sole source for ammo/barrels/uppers/reloading materials, in the long run (IMO) it marginalizes the cartidge. Hornady and, inexplicably, Wolf are the only non-AA producers of his ammo that I know of.

...and using C4 as the entrance doorway of choice

Ring mains and mouseholes. I remember those days fondly.

By the way, if Canadian law limits barrel length to 18.5", how is it you have an 11.5" SBR?

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13 years 7 months ago #7121 by Lazerus2011
Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic Deja Vu ....The AR 10 VS the M14 ... again?
LEB,
"if Canadian law limits barrel length to 18.5", how is it you have an 11.5" SBR?"

Canadian law limits CUTTING a rifle barrel to less than 18.5".
Installing a FACTORY MADE barrel less than 18.5" is quite acceptable.

Here in Canada, the AR 15 is already a restricted item, same as a pistol, and barrel length is irrelevant to the paper chase. We Canucks can also add a butt stock to our pistols with no hassles. Like the "Glock Carbine Kit" below.

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I have built up a few CANADIAN LEGAL AR 15 SBRs using 7" pistol gas block configured barrels, but with 5.56/.223 these SBRs are pretty ridiculous. More flame and muzzle blast than velocity, and the standard deviation goes to heck as most of the powder is burned OUTSIDE the barrel. A few months ago I traded my 10.5" AR 15 .223 barrel for an 11.5" RRA 5.56 barrel, and that extra 1" DOES make a BIG difference. I also installed a modified LeVang "?comp?" on the 11.5" barrel, which does nothing to reduce muzzle flip or recoil, but which does direct ALL the gases to the front, and burns them more efficiently.

I think the .300 Blackout might be ideal for an SBR, and they seem to be marketing this caliber as ideal for a 9" barrel with suppressor. .300 Blackout might just be my next project ... but not till I see the ammo here first. BTDT with the 6.8 SPC, and don't want to get any more rude surprises. Up here my local gun shop was selling the virgin brass for near a dollar each ... OUCH!!! I sort of regret selling off my two .300 Whisper rigs, with the 1000 rds of prepped brass and loading dies. But reloading for the standard calibers already eats up too much of my valuable free time, and I don't really enjoy it any more. So no more wildcat cartridges for me. Buying ammo off the shelf is better, but best of all is trading my gunsmiting skills for "FREE AMMO".

I regret selling my last AR 15 build in 5.56, which had a 14.5" barrel. 14.5" seems to me to be the best all around compromise between portability and ballistic ability in the poodle popper caliber. BUT, since I retired last Dec, and plan to spend more time in the US in the near future, I can see the need developing for a US Street Legal 16" barrel on my next AR 15 build.

Not trying to hijack the thread BACK to the M14 VS AR 10,
but it seems the only rifles I have at the moment that would be "street legal" in the US, are my Remington AR 10 HUNTING RIFLES!!! My M14 builds are almost always created on a Chinese NORINCO M14 clone receiver, so these can't go South with me. And my AR 15s are usually shorter than 16", so no luck there either.

And the funniest part of this story???
IN CANUCKISTAN I CAN'T LEGALLY HUNT NO MORE WITH MY AR 10 RIFLES ...
at least not since the Canucklehead laws changed in 1992.

Strange world we live in, eh what?

A few pics just to remind us what an M14 looks like:

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and what an SBR AR 15 looks like next to an AR 10:

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And of an M14 trying to look like an AR 10:

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I am currently involved in a project to create the perfect M14 Munimula stock ... which ... surprise, surprise ...
will make it look and handle as much like an AR 10 as possible.

Just can't beat the ergonomics of the AR 10 family ....
although I DO like the bullpup concept. The Galil I tried out was very nice indeed.

Now think Galil in .300 Blackout,
HMmmmmmmm?

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13 years 7 months ago #7129 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Re: Deja Vu ....The AR 10 VS the M14 ... again?

Canadian law limits CUTTING a rifle barrel to less than 18.5".
Installing a FACTORY MADE barrel less than 18.5" is quite acceptable.

Got it; understand.

...14.5" seems to me to be the best all around compromise between portability and ballistic ability in the poodle popper caliber. BUT, since I retired last Dec, and plan to spend more time in the US in the near future, I can see the need developing for a US Street Legal 16" barrel on my next AR 15 build.

US BATFE considers the flash hider/comp/brake as part of the barrel. You can have a 14.5" barrel as long as your muzzle device is 1.5" long, bringing the OAL of the barrel to 16", you're good to go. The only fly in the ointment is the muzzle device must be permanently attached to the barrel to bring it into compliance.

IN CANUCKISTAN I CAN'T LEGALLY HUNT NO MORE WITH MY AR 10 RIFLES ...
at least not since the Canucklehead laws changed in 1992.

Hunting laws vary from state to state, here in the US. When it comes to using AR and M14 type rifles, it usually centers around mag capacity. Many states restrict mag capacity to 5 rounds. I am unsure of what the reg is in WA.

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13 years 7 months ago #7156 by silver78
Replied by silver78 on topic Re: "7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment .."

Lazerus2011 wrote: "7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment for decades"

These days I am not so young, and I take a lot of Glucosamine. When it comes to rifles, I shoot more .22 LR than 5.56/.223 and 7.62/.308 put together. Pistol shooting is done with Glocks, again mostly with a .22 LR conversion. My G22, G31 and G35 are all set up to shoot .40 S&W and 9mm, and .357 SIG as well. My FAVORITE pistol cartridge is the .357 SIG. But realistically, I shoot way more 9mm and .22 LR than any thing else.

Retirement is great .... it consists, so my wife tells me, of "growing old gracefully". But some how .45 Super, .44 Mag, .357 SIG, and .308 Win are not as much fun for me as they once were. That "Bigger Hammer" seems to have hit back.

Maybe a prescription for .300 Blackout will perk me up?


I can relate to this. As my 40s are behind me I noticed over time that my 44 magnum 629 and my 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun just became painful to shoot. The pain usually developed in my joints several hours after shooting them. So last year I sold them both.

On the rest of the discussion in this thread, here are my thoughts - for what it's worth.

I own an AR-10, a regular AR-15 in 5.56 and an AR-15 in 6.8. I like them all.

I do not consider the 308 an ideal close quarters weapon. My AR-10 has a 22 inch barrel and is more for longer ranges. In my view it's a bigger heavy gun that works best most cases a 20+ inch barrel. This is where it really shines.

Either the 5.56 or the 6.8 can be configured as a close quarter battle rifle. But for me (and I think for most civilians) a Remington 870 or 1100 beats either of them. A shotgun is not "tacticool" when compared to any AR platform rifle, but it's incredibly effective at the short ranges usually involved in home defense. YMMV.

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13 years 7 months ago #7181 by BUILDING MY SASS
Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re: "7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment .."
SILVER...."a Remington 870 or 1100 beats either of them. A shotgun is not "tacticool" when compared to any AR platform rifle, but it's incredibly effective at the short ranges usually involved in home defense. "

and I will add that the sound of "RACKING" :ohmy: one into the chamber is usually enough to send an intruder out the window...LOL ;) Kinda like seeing a Laser Dot on their chest...but the sound of an AR bolt closing in the dark is equally eyeopening..

LAZ.....Now that I have "wiped" the DROOL off my keyboard... :woohoo:
Nice collection...Dam man...SWEET.
BMS

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13 years 7 months ago #7182 by Lazerus2011
Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic To BMSASS ....There is more to life than GUNS???
Or so my wife tells me anyhow.

AND,
like any other sane and sensible REAL man,
I have to do what my wife tells me.

We just retired last Fall, and as part of our retirement scheme I bought a 27' Power Boat ... so we could enjoy the Wet Coast "Fantasy Island" lifestyle, exploring and gunkholing and camping on and around all those scenic Gulf Islands.

Which means that now my life is "in flux",
and EVERYTHING is being re-evaluated as to how it fits into our new "Nautical" life style.

AND THAT "RE-EVALUATION SEEMS TO BE INCLUDING ALL MY GUNS!!!

You can only fit so many guns into a couple of waterproof Browning travel cases and there is only so much storage room on even a big boat like ours. So some of the guns have to go.

Do I really NEED 4 Glocks, in four calibers?
Do I REALLY NEED MORE THAN ONE AR rifle?
How much ammunition can I [ reasonably ] bring along?
How many guns and how much ammo can you stuff into a waterproof Browning travel case before it won't float no more?

I bought the power boat with a Volvo 260/290 inboard/outdrive, and without a spare outboard for a kicker. And the Wife bought a brand new 10' RIB as our dinghy.

And now it is Spring, and boating season is upon us,
AND SHE WILL NOT LEAVE THE DOCK UNTIL WE HAVE A MOTOR ON HER BRAND NEW DINGHY, AND A KICKER AS A "SAFETY ITEM" on my Cabin Cruiser.

So, like any other sane and sensible REAL man, I have to do what my wife tells me, and sell a few guns to get a couple of outboard motors.

OR ELSE!!!

OOPS!!!!
It seems that I've got the "TOO MANY GUNS and NOT ENOUGH OUTBOARD MOTOR BLUES"

SO,
last weekend I was at a local gun show, with a sign on my table ...
"WILL TRADE GUNS FOR OUTBOARDS MOTOR".

A Man's gotta do what a Man's gotta do!

Oh well,
what the hell,
even I would have to admit that carrying around all my guns and ammunition at one time would give me a hernia,
so maybe she is right ...
maybe there IS more to life than guns.
Maybe?

So far, what I've discovered as a new boat owner is that B.O.A.T DOES INDEED spell Bring Out ANOTHER Thousand.

The only good news so far is that, unlike my guns, the B.O.A.T. is insured for more than I paid for it ....
[;{)

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13 years 7 months ago #7183 by BUILDING MY SASS
Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re: To BMSASS ....There is more to life than GUNS???
There Is... :huh:

Being my wife is a quilter she always tell me "you can never have TO MUCH FABRIC".
On the same note I tell her...you can never have to many guns....and as a friend of mine said once...."if your wife is not b@tching about all the ammo around the house, you don't have enough." :laugh: :woohoo:

Be careful taking the on the boat....
you might sink it if you get to many on board....:dry: :lol: :whistle:

Thanks for the smile...:)
BMS

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13 years 7 months ago #7241 by xgcakasha
Replied by xgcakasha on topic Re: Deja Vu ....The AR 10 VS the M14 ... again?
here in ohio you cannot even use rifles to hunt, only shotguns and pistols afaik. i don't hunt though so i could be wrong on that info. i would like to build an ar-15 in .243wsm. I think that would be cool. oh and there is no such thing as owning too many ar based rifles or too much ammo......

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13 years 7 months ago #7243 by BUILDING MY SASS
Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re: Deja Vu ....The AR 10 VS the M14 ... again?

xgcakasha wrote: here in ohio you cannot even use rifles to hunt, only shotguns and pistols afaik. i don't hunt though so i could be wrong on that info. i would like to build an ar-15 in .243wsm. I think that would be cool. oh and there is no such thing as owning too many ar based rifles or too much ammo......


AMEN...BROTHER...AMEN.B)

As someone told me once....if your wife isn't B@tching about all the ammo around the house....YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH..:woohoo: ;)
BMS

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #7247 by xgcakasha
Replied by xgcakasha on topic Re: Te AR 10 VS the M14
the way i look at it, instead of wasting money on lame things like fake fingernails or some stupid purse that only signals to thieves "look here i have something you can steal from me" my money is better spent buying more guns or more ammo. guns can be considered an investment of sorts anyway. ;) i had rather invest in items that do not make me a target for criminals, but instead make them think twice about messing with me. i grew up in a bad neighborhood and if anybody saw you carrying some ridiculous expensive purse (whether or not you had any money left to put into it after buying it) they would be trying to rob you for sure, so when i was in school instead of buying junk like that i took self defense classes and taekwondo. from there i moved up to guns lol.
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by xgcakasha. Reason: hit submit too soon

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