Te AR 10 VS the M14

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13 years 8 months ago #7027 by Lazerus2011
Te AR 10 VS the M14 was created by Lazerus2011
One thought to consider ...
AFTER
the M14 beat the AR 10 in the US Military Rifle Replacement TRIALS,
and BEFORE
the AR 15 was adapted,
IF
LeMay and Stoner had got together and decided to go with an AR 10 IN .243 Winchester, instead of the scaled down AR 15 in 5.56 Poodle Popper, think about how different the history of military Small Arms and military small group tactics might have been?
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

As a former Canadian licensed gun smith and fire arms dealer, I've personally owned, repaired, disemboweled, rebuilt, customised, and mostly chopped into 18.5" barreled shorties, well over 100 of the M14 type rifles. This includes four dozen GENUINE US GI M14s, five Springfield M1as [ including SA's best, a SS SUPERMATCH ] and then dozens and dozens of the Chinese M14 clones This includes the old pre-ban Norincos and Polytechs, and lately many of the new improved Canadian imported Norcs and Polys. And then, several dozen more of the M14 rifle's little brothers, the Ruger Mini 14s and Mini 30s

So obviously, I like the M14 platform.
BUT,
the M14 is not and never has been my FAVORITE battle rifle.

Before I got my first genuine M14 rifle, I had owned dozens of the GENUINE Dutch built military issue AR 10 rifles, Sudanese and Portuguese variations.
AND,
I quite simply like the AR 10 platform better than the M14, or any thing else I've tried ... including my Canadian issue FN C1A1 or C2, both of which I carried as a Canadian Infantryman and then as a Canadian Infantry Officer [ Leader of Infants?.

My experience with these platforms has shown me that:

1.] The AR 10 rifles are MORE ACCURATE out of the box, and MUCH EASIER to keep accurate than an M14.

2.] The AR 10, with straight line stock and greatly improved ergonomics, is much faster at CQB scenarios.
Why else have so many people [ including ,myself ] spent so much time and effort trying to make their M14 hasve the look and feel of an AR 10??

3.] Judging by the three dozen AR 10 samples I completely disassembled and rebuilt, the AR 10s are just as durable and robust a platform as the M14. The AR 10 samples I worked on had seen HARD use, in horrible Tropical [ African Congo ] conditions, used by mostly ill trained "soldiers", with zero or minimal maintenance. "Just piss down the barrel every month or so to keep the Gun God happy".

All of the AR 10s I rebuilt were fully functional MECHANICALLY, with several of them suffering from broken plastic stocks and hand guards. One had a beat up mag well/hold open device, where some ignorant SOB had dry fired the rifle over and over again WITHOUT a bolt. That was welded and filed back into shape, and I turned that lower into my personal Practical Rifle Match competitor.

4.] Judging by the thousands of rounds, 7.62 NATO, Win .308 Factory. and my own reloads, that I put through testing and competing with them, the AR 10 is every bit as functionally reliable as an M14. The only weak spot of the original AR 10 design was the soft lipped aluminum waffle magazines, which originally were intended to be ONE USE/Disposable in the field.

5.]The AR 10 is incredibly accurate and functions reliably with a much broader range of ammunition than does an M14. I've shot AR 10 rifles with the factory Remington "Acellerator" .223 Sabot carried superlight/superfast bullets, and all the way up to Winchester 200 Gr Silvertip SP "bear and moose " hunting ammo. As a matter of fact, all three of the above loads, as well as the usual 168 Gr HPBT loads, shot SUB-moa for me out of various AR 10s. Can't do that with an M14.

So,
even though I am personally involved in a project to make an M14 into an AR 10 lookyloo, and still have a fond spot in my heart [ and gun cabinet ] for the M14, my primary semi auto gas gun battle rifle wannabee, is an AR 10. These days, I like the Remington R25 AR15/AR10 HYBRIDS as the best AR 10 VALUE of any of the many other AR10/AR15 HYBRIDs currently available. I have had three of the R25s, and am currently optimising one of these into a CQB shorty ... for those occassions when my 11.5" AR 15 won't do the job.

Aka ... "when the ZOMBI's are riding Moose instead of Poodles."

One last thought to consider ...
IF ONLY
LeMay and Stoner had got together and decided to go with an AR 10 IN .243 Winchester, instead of the scaled down AR 15 in 5.56 Poodle Stopper ...
IF ONLY ....

As always with any opinions expressed on the internet,
YPMMV

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13 years 7 months ago #7030 by Maximus
Replied by Maximus on topic Re: Te AR 10 VS the M14
After reading this I'm gonna have to conduct a test. I have an M1A/Loaded and an AR10B. Now I have to shoot these to see just how accurate they are. I know the M1A is one ragged hole at 100M. I'll see if the AR10 can do as well. I will be shooting GI surplus ammo from India, since that is what I have. :woohoo: Looking forward to it.

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13 years 7 months ago #7031 by Maximus
Replied by Maximus on topic Re: Te AR 10 VS the M14
What the hell I might as well include the AR10T/260 Remington into the contest. This will be using my reloads.

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #7034 by crux
Replied by crux on topic Re: Te AR 10 VS the M14

Maximus wrote: After reading this I'm gonna have to conduct a test. I have an M1A/Loaded and an AR10B. Now I have to shoot these to see just how accurate they are. I know the M1A is one ragged hole at 100M. I'll see if the AR10 can do as well. I will be shooting GI surplus ammo from India, since that is what I have. :woohoo: Looking forward to it.


This is my AR10 Carbine at 200 yards in wind with an EOTech for optics and 30 year old Australian surplus L2a1. With no wind, and having the rifle strapped to the bench (and not dependent on my eyes) and perhaps up-to-date ammo, I have no doubt it would be all rounds touching or better.

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I love the M14, but I love the AR10 a more, especially the ergonomics and familiarity that comes with everyone and their uncle having an AR15 type rifle.
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by crux.

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13 years 7 months ago #7043 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Re: Te AR 10 VS the M14

These days, I like the Remington R25 AR15/AR10 HYBRIDS as the best AR 10 VALUE of any of the many other AR10/AR15 HYBRIDs currently available. I have had three of the R25s, and am currently optimising one of these into a CQB shorty ... for those occassions when my 11.5" AR 15 won't do the job.

The Remington R25 is nothing more than a Bushmaster with a big green "R" on it and some bubba-flage.

What, pray, does your CQB "optimising" consist of?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lazerus2011

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13 years 7 months ago #7079 by Lazerus2011
Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic AR 10 SHORTY for CQB?
In Canada, we can't shorten a rifle barrel to less than 18.5", and I personally see no use in shooting full power 7.62 NATO or .308 Win "BATTLE RIFLE" ammo out of a barrel shorter than that. My experience has shown me that a good comp is critical for faster follow up shots, so the barrel will either get shortened to 18.5" and then comped, or more likely I'll machine an integral compensator into the 20" barrel. I also have experience shooting lighter bullets in AR 10 rifles, usually 123 - 130 gr at 7.62X39 velocities, or else at max velocity. So, for a start I'll be using an 18.5" barrel, comped, with lighter bullets.

WAYYyyyyyy back in the day, the original three gun and rifle matches I shot in were scored with 1 shot of .308 equal to two shots of a .223 or 7.62 X 39 Russian. I competed using an ORIGINAL Sudanese GENUINE AR 10 which I shortened, comped, cut half the carrying handle off to make a Weaver rail, added a co-witnessed Red dot, put on an AR 15 round hand guard and pistol grip, and made up a skeletonised tubular stock. This old AR 10 M4gry was very fast and very controllable in those old matches, and even performed well on fast forward, with 3 rd bursts easily held on an IPSC sil at 25 yds from standing, or 100 yds from prone.

My modern Rem R25 AR 10/AR15 HYBRID will be configured in a similar manner,
but no rock and roll on this one.

These days, in modern 3 gun or practical rifle competition, I don't think ANY AR 10 shooting FULL power .308 Win or 7.62 NATO loads would be competitive against the lighter/faster handling/lighter recoiling AR 15s in .223, or the more modern .30 Blackout or 6.8 SPC. I have some experience with both .300 Whisper and with 6.8 SPC, and while both of these cartridges can make an AR 15 into a more powerful and very viable CQB solution, neither cartridge will give me the versatility, range and power of the .308 Win.

So, to retain the power and versatility I want, I choose to try to make a Battle Rifle into a CQB carbine, RATHER THAN TRYING TO MAKE A CQB CARBINE INTO A LONG RANGE BATTLE RIFLE.

like they say ...."There is no substitute for cubic inches",
and
"You can always load a .308 Win cartridge DOWN, to duplicate .300 Whisper and 6.8 SPC, but you can't load .300 Whisper or 6.8 SPC UP to duplicate .308 Win.

YPMMV

PS to LebbenB: The Remington R25 is a DPMS built "bubbification".
Nothing at all to do with the Bushmasters.

And all three of my R25 rifles, once better trigger were installed, shot SUB-moa.
And all three together cost me about as much as ONE BIG NAME AR 10 clone.

To date, the only reliability issue I've had is ONE failure to fire with OLD 7.62 NATO Berdan primed ammo ... and a second strike did fire that one.

ZERO failures to feed with about a dozen different types of ammo, and with three brands of magazines.
That makes the Rem R25 rifles pretty good values in my mind.

PPS: I now have only TWO R25s ... the third went to a genuine SWAT trained police sniper. A discriminating shopper indeed.

Feel free to spend more money for a BIG NAME BRAND,
but realistically, how much more could you really need?.

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13 years 7 months ago - 13 years 7 months ago #7081 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Re: AR 10 SHORTY for CQB?
Where to start with this...

In Canada, we can't shorten a rifle barrel to less than 18.5", and I personally see no use in shooting full power 7.62 NATO or .308 Win "BATTLE RIFLE" ammo out of a barrel shorter than that. My experience has shown me that a good comp is critical for faster follow up shots, so the barrel will either get shortened to 18.5" and then comped, or more likely I'll machine an integral compensator into the 20" barrel.

18.5" isn't very short, especially for CQB purposes. I've cleared rooms with a 20" barreled rifle before. And it's awkward, to say the least. 18.5" with a comp/20" with an integral comp doesn't make it a "shorty" as you said you were doing in a previous post. What sort of rail system are you planning to use to use?

I competed using an ORIGINAL Sudanese GENUINE AR 10 which I shortened, comped, cut half the carrying handle off to make a Weaver rail, added a co-witnessed Red dot, put on an AR 15 round hand guard and pistol grip, and made up a skeletonised tubular stock.

This is also the "original Sudanese AR-10" you repaired by welding more aluminium to the lower receiver, yes? Do you have a picture of this rig? I'd like to see it. I'm particularly interested in how you adapted the carrying handle. What sort of RDS were you using to co-witness?

These days, in modern 3 gun or practical rifle competition, I don't think ANY AR 10 shooting FULL power .308 Win or 7.62 NATO loads would be competitive against the lighter/faster handling/lighter recoiling AR 15s in .223, or the more modern .30 Blackout or 6.8 SPC.

Nope. This year, USPSA changed their power ratings and taget scoring system to allow .308/7.62 to compete more effectively.

PS to LebbenB: The Remington R25 is a DPMS built "bubbification".
Nothing at all to do with the Bushmasters.

I stand corrected. DPMS does indeed build the R-25. Bushmaster builds the R-15. All three - Remington, DPMS and Bushmaster are owned by the same company - Oracle or The Freedom Group, as it is now known.

I didn't say the rifle was "bubba-fied." I said it had bubbaflage. And good luck with it when it wears away.
Last edit: 13 years 7 months ago by LebbenB. Reason: Grammar, puctuation and spelling

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13 years 7 months ago #7084 by Lazerus2011
Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic The AR 10 as a CQB solution??
An "Assault Rifle" such as an M4 carbine is theoretically optimised for the CQB tactical role. I have an 11.5" AR 15 I built, and with the heavier CQB Optimised .223 Rem loads I have available, and with the accompanying .22 LR conversion kit I keep with it, this is one of my favorite fire arms. This is the rifle I would give to my wife if TSHTF.

However, if you stay with the 5.56 cartridge, there will always be some question as to whether your chosen solution is capable of stopping the charge of a RABID POODLE that is up close and personal, within ankle biting distance. Hence the evolution of the AR 15 into something more powerful. I've personally fooled around a bit with .300 Whisper and 6.8SPC, and I do admire the increase in power these cartridges give to the AR 15 platform. And I've always wanted to try some of the new big bore "Thumper" cartridges, recently developed for the AR 15 mag length platform. When the .30 Blackout 220 Gr sub-sonic loads eventually hit my local gun store, I may be tempted to build a .30 Blackout upper. These modern cartridges have given the AR 15 enough power to handle almost any CQB task you could imagine, including Rabid Mutant Zombi Poodles.

However, there will always be major compromises when trying to turn a CQB platform into a more versatile / more accurate / longer range solution. And as I said in my previous post, you can't load up any AR 15 cartridge to be as versatile as a genuine "Battle Rifle" cartridge. Within the limitations of the AR 15 mag size, the 6.5 Grendel probably comes the closest to matching the 7.62 NATO in range and power at distance, but the 6.5 caliber bore limits the weight and thus the inherent versatility of the system.

A "Battle Rifle", shooting the more powerful 7.62 NATO / .308 Win cartridge, may never be as light, nimble, or quick at CQB as any AR 15 M4rgry. But with careful trimming and lighter ammunition, a properly set up AR 10 may be quick enough, AND MUCH MORE VERSATILE!!

My .308 Win chambered AR 10 shoots the powerful 200 GR Winchester Silvertip SP HUNTING AMMUNITION into sub-moa. Some of my previous AR 10s shot the Remington Accelerators, with a .223 caliber bullet at .22-250 / varmint exploding velocities, with equal accuracy. The 168 Gr HPBT Match ammo shoots even better, and is the long time accepted military standard for long range shots. And loaded with 125 GR SP, at either 7.62 X 39 Russian velocities, or at high velocity, with a good comp, the light .30 cal bullets provide minimum recoil and maximum speed for quick follow up shots.

For the ultimate versatility, I chose to try to make an AR 10 battle rifle into a CQB solution, rather than attempting to make an AR 15 / M4rgry CQB rifle into a more powerful, longer range solution. I like the power.

But I am keeping my AR 15 / M4rgry too, and don't be surprised if it ends up soon with another 16" barreled top end in .30 Blackout.

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13 years 7 months ago #7085 by Lazerus2011
Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic AR 10 for CQB???
I used to think I had built the world

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13 years 7 months ago #7089 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Re: AR 10 for CQB???

Can

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