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The proposed 2013 ban and the Heller decision...?

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11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16191 by fivewhy
This whole thread is just me scratching my ass and gazing at my belly button. Probably not of any benefit. I'll try to come back and update this as my thoughts change/develop over time.

DISCLAIMER: nothing in this thread or in anything that I have posted on this website or any other, can be construed as legal advice. That would be dumb. No posting of mine, anywhere, can be construed to establish any attorney-client relationship, of any kind or variety. This is an internet web forum. If you require legal advice, you should speak directly with an attorney. You assume the risk for all action you take if you choose to rely on anything stated by me.

PREFACE
First, read all disclaimers contained in this post and this website and anywhere else that is relevant and pertinent. This thread attempts to address the 2013 semiautomatic weapons ban in light of District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008). Heller only addressed an “absolute” ban on pistols and a ban on having any type of "operable" firearm in a home. The proposed 2013 ban contains multiple wholly independent and severable bans, including: semiautomatic rifle ban, semiautomatic pistol ban, semiautomatic shotgun ban, and a ban on magazines with a capacity of “more than 10 rounds.” The language is available here: www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cf...fb-9b2f-69e69f517fb4 [a pdf file]. I believe the weapons ban will be just a political chip to be used to leverage other concessions elsewhere. In other words, “we’ll drop the weapons-ban proposal, if you concede on [fill in the blank].” But the magazine ban is a whole separate issue.

Sidenote — there is a 90-day window, after enactment, to freely transfer pre-ban “weapons” without the need for a federal license. I am kind of thinking this might be ripe ground for creation of a gun trust. But, maybe not. The statute says, after the 90th day, “it shall be unlawful for any person who is not licensed under this chapter to transfer a grandfathered semiautomatic assault weapon to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter.” A grandfathered weapon is one that was lawfully possessed on the day of enactment. This means you can only sell a pre-ban “weapon” to a licensed dealer and only the licensed dealer can sell to an unlicensed person (after the 90-day window has expired). As for “large capacity ammunition feeding device,” you can continue to “possess” the mag if you possessed it lawfully on the day of enactment. However, you can never again “transfer” the magazine, with or without a federal license—I believe. Of note, this ban on magazine possession “shall not” apply to “the possession, by an individual who is retired in good standing from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving ammunition” if “the individual purchased, or otherwise obtained, for official use before such retirement” or if the magazine was given to him by the agency. Now, what exactly does it mean to “retire in good standing”? I don't know. Anyway, If I am reading the ban on the transfer of hi cap mags correctly, it would definitely be wise to consult a competent lawyer about a gun trust....well, keeping the mags in a trust might permit you to change the trustees at your discretion. Whether you could amend the trust and assign a new trustee (think: new owner but not really bc the trust is the “owner,” the trustee just oversees the trust and has control over the trust's assets, the guns) or whether such amendment amounts to a de facto “transfer” is a totally-up-in-the-air question. I have no idea. I don’t think anyone has any idea. But, I am sure with more research I could possibly find something. The answer to this question is very complicated. It depends on the combination of federal gun law and state trust law, and what exactly is the definition of “transfer”. Do not rely on anything I have said here or anywhere on this site. Go see a real attorney. Here is an interesting case to read when it comes to gun trusts. United States v. Miller, 588 F.3d 418 (7th Cir. 2009). Draw your own conclusions.

See next post.
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by fivewhy.

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11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16192 by fivewhy
THE 2013 ONE-FACTOR TEST
Code:
‘‘(36) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means any of the following, regardless of country of manufacture or caliber of ammunition accepted: ‘‘(A) A semiautomatic rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any 1 of the following: ‘‘(i) A pistol grip. ‘‘(ii) A forward grip. ‘‘(iii) A folding, telescoping, or detachable stock. ‘‘(iv) A grenade launcher or rocket launcher. ‘‘(v) A barrel shroud. ‘‘(vi) A threaded barrel. ‘‘(D) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any 1 of the following: ‘‘(i) A threaded barrel. ‘‘(ii) A second pistol grip. ‘‘(iii) A barrel shroud. ‘‘(iv) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip. ‘‘(v) A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm. ‘‘(F) A semiautomatic shotgun that has any 1 of the following: ‘‘(i) A folding, telescoping, or detachable stock. ‘‘(ii) A pistol grip. ‘‘(iii) A fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 5 rounds. ‘‘(iv) The ability to accept a detachable magazine. ‘‘(v) A forward grip. ‘‘(vi) A grenade launcher or rocket launcher. ‘‘(G) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

(scroll the quote box to see) There are some other provisions that I have omitted, you can see by the skipped letters (I only show (A) (D) (F) and (G)). To me, the question is whether these definitions create a quasi-absolute ban on all semiautomatic weapons. The more that it does, the more it is like the ban in Heller.

THE 2008 HELLER DECISION
Part I explains the underlying facts/circumstances. Part II goes through a vey lengthy analysis, establishing that the right to bear arms is an “individual” right to bear arms for the purposes of self defense. Part III is very short and explains the right is not unlimited and may be curtailed where appropriate. Part IV explains that DC’s a) “absolute” ban on all handguns and b) ban on having any kind of operational firearm in the home was a violation of the right to bear arms for purposes of individual self-defense.

The struck-down DC statute prohibited anyone from owning a pistol, unless it was grandfathered-in by registering the pistol (not merely possessing like in the 2013 ban) prior to 1975 (which is when it was enacted..yea it was struck down when it was over 30 years old) or if possessed by LEO. The statute also required that all firearms including rifles and shotguns be kept “unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock.” This obviously prevented people from using any firearm whatsoever for self-defense.

Heller told us several things: 1) the Second Amendment protects the “individual” right to bear arms for the purposes of self defense, not merely for the purpose of creating a standing state militia, 2) the phrase “bear arms” mean to carry on one’s person whether in one’s home or otherwise, 3) a person may be disqualified from the exercise of his second am rights due to felony conviction or legal incompetency (mental illness, youth, etc) or the fact of being in a “sensitive” area such as a school or prison—i.e., the right “is not unlimited,” 3) the second am “codified a pre-existing right” (it came from case law dating back to the 1600’s..but really even before that), 4) the Second Amendment extends, as a prima facie matter, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding (this just means that simply bc a weapon did not exist at the time of ratification does not indicate the second am does not protect it, though there may be other reasons the second am does not extend to it…such as a machine gun or explosives), 5) the historical Miller decision (from 1939 regarding the NFA) continues to provide that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time,” and 6) there is a historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” There are additional things said by Heller, but I am leaving it at these for now.

The more narrow holding of Heller was that the District of Columbia’s statute was an “absolute” prohibition on “handguns” (all pistols and revolvers), and that such prohibition was unconstitutional impingement of the right to bear arms for individual self defense bc pistols are overwhelmingly “in common use” for purposes of self defense.

Astonishingly, what Heller did not do was provide a level a constitutional scrutiny that is to be applied when analyzing the government’s abrogation/impingement of the right to bear arms. Normally, when the legislature (or executive branch, for that matter) impinges a right protected by the constitution, the enacted statutory provision must withstand one of three levels of constitutional scrutiny: strict scrutiny , intermediate scrutiny , or rational basis scrutiny . Normally, when the right is a “fundamental” right, strict scrutiny applies—but not every fundamental right triggers strict scrutiny. For example, the Fifth said a federal law prohibiting FFL dealers from selling handguns to ppl under 21 (but the law did not prevent young ppl from possessing handguns) is reviewed under intermediate scrutiny bc there has been a longstanding tradition of age-based safety restrictions governing firearms. Nat’l Rifle Ass’n of Am., Inc. v. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives, 700 F.3d 185, 206-207 (5th Cir. 2012) (“Under this federal regulatory scheme, 18-to-20-year-olds may possess and use handguns for self-defense, hunting, or any other lawful purpose; they may acquire handguns from responsible parents or guardians; and they may possess, use, and purchase long-guns. Accordingly, the scheme is sufficiently bounded to avoid strict scrutiny.”).

So, Heller struck down the 30+ year-old DC statute without identifying any level of scrutiny to be applied. That is extremely odd, and no one is exactly sure why...or at least I am not sure. It probably has something to do with the fact that this was an all-out ban, and the level of scrutiny to be applied should be dependent on the particular circumstances of the impingement. But I still do not understand why they would not just say fundamental as applied to law-abiding citizen when the arms at issue are “in common use” and therefore strict scrutiny in this narrow context. I am thinking that perhaps not all 5 of the majority would sign on if that was put in the final decision. I’m just speculating, but if that is true that means one of the 5 was on the fence...not good.

Lastly, Heller only addressed “handguns.” However, Scalia did mention rifles. After discussing that the amendment protected weapons “in common use at the time,” the majority opinion said, in dicta:
  • “It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause [of the Second Amendment]. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.”
District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570, 627-28 (2008). The prefatory clause is: “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,” the operative clause is: “the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”

To me, this indicates a strong preference in favor of holding that the second amendment protects the right to bear semiautomatic rifles and pistols—weapons that may fall under the category of “M-16 rifles and the like.” However, the answer to question is the answer we are looking for and can only guess at for now. Also, even if the second am protects the right to bear those arms, Congress may impinge that right any day of the week if its impingement meets strict scrutiny….and possibly if it meets merely intermediate scrutiny. Not sure.

MY PERSONAL CONCLUSIONS, THAT COULD EASILY BE WRONG FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON AT ALL
I do not think the weapons ban will pass, and if it does pass, I do not believe it will be upheld. But I need more time to think about this. Right now, I am thinking that the one-factor test bans essentially all semiautomatic weapons. That is a critical deciding factor in this case. If so, the 2013 ban would be sufficiently similar to the absolute ban in Heller. In other words, whatever scrutiny was applied in Heller, must dictate that the instant ban is equally unconstitutional bc both bans completely abrogate the right to bear an entire class of weapons that is in common use prior to the enactment of the ban. But if the other side can distinguish and say that the 2013 ban doesn’t ban a big large “Group X” of semiautomatic weapons, then this argument is torpedoed. It is actually invigorating to see the statute list so many rifles that are exempted...bc they are almost all bolt action that would have never fit the definition anyway. It goes to show they know they are banning a huge amount of guns. The un-pretty fact is that the weapons that are good at killing humans are the weapons in common use for lawful self-defense. The fact of being semiautomatic is simply a fact of being effective and necessary for self-defense. No amount of legislation or clever statutory language can maneuver around this. The only way to prevent horrific massacres is to address the root causes of those. Among other things, this includes mental health issues—which presents its own slew of problematic sub-issues.

So where does this leave us?

I believe that we have to re-frame the issue as, not a question of banning “assault” weapons, but a question of banning “semiautomatic” weapons. Reshape the conversation. I have no idea how to do this. That is the job of those puny lobbyist/marketing f’kers…present company excepted if any such be present. : )
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by fivewhy.
The following user(s) said Thank You: VTIT

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11 years 10 months ago #16193 by Siscowet
Nice summation and some good opinions. And thank you for your present company exception, though its been a while since I worked lobbying.

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11 years 10 months ago #16209 by fivewhy

Siscowet wrote: And thank you for your present company exception, though its been a while since I worked lobbying.

Hahah...my being jerky comes from unadulterated jealousy. I appreciate your comments; this whole little piece needs more development, tho. I'll re-look at it soon and see if I can clean it up. If you or anyone has thoughts, whether to say I missed something / got something wrong or to offer a difference of opinion on something, please let me know. I am basically at the point of bouncing ideas around for now. Hopefully, this laid a base to work from. I will say, the more I think about it the more worried I am about the mag ban, rather than the weapons ban...but I suppose that's obvious. I watched some of Feinstein's sunday interviews, as well as other shows' reactions to the ban, and I don't think anyone believes the weapons ban will pass. And I mean not even her...but no crystal ball sadly.

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11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16216 by OleCowboy
While I think the data you have is accurate, I would wait and get ahold of the actual submitted bill, here is a link to it: thomas.loc.gov/home/thomas.php Click on bill number and enter S. 150

The bill has not been sent from the GPO yet, but it should make it this week.

It may be me, but I just like working off the actual bill as sent to Congress, often there are a lot of changes...I am sure you know all this, but just making a suggestion...
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by OleCowboy.

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11 years 10 months ago #16218 by Siscowet
Changes and amendments can happen so fast, Ole Cowboy is right. If and when it makes it to committee and if it makes it to the floor, is the time to watch the changes like a hawk, since it is all too easy for provisions to be slipped in at the last minute and overlooked. The best way is to get a staffer to commit to keeping you appraised of the changes, although I am sure the NRA and other shooting groups have people already doing that. I don't think the ban will make it out of committee, but the magazine ban could come back as an executive order if it doesn't pass congress. That is the sort of halfway thing Obama might want to test the water with.

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11 years 10 months ago - 11 years 10 months ago #16235 by OleCowboy

Siscowet wrote: Changes and amendments can happen so fast, Ole Cowboy is right. If and when it makes it to committee and if it makes it to the floor, is the time to watch the changes like a hawk, since it is all too easy for provisions to be slipped in at the last minute and overlooked. The best way is to get a staffer to commit to keeping you appraised of the changes, although I am sure the NRA and other shooting groups have people already doing that. I don't think the ban will make it out of committee, but the magazine ban could come back as an executive order if it doesn't pass congress. That is the sort of halfway thing Obama might want to test the water with.

Breaking news: WH/Obama said today if Congress won't "they have ways around them" They talked about other govt agencies such as EPA, IRS etc putting pressure on them and making them difficult...if you know what I mean?

My guess is selling them insurance, which is where Big Al Capone made a lot of his money. Stop by a local bar ask if they are using Capone brews for their hooch and mention that bars that do not seem to have a lot of problems. That night drive by with a few Chicago typewriters and spray for insects.

Next day stop by and ask if they want to buy a insurance policy.

Think the IRS might start auditing every gun maker and seller in the US...YOU THINK?

EPA governs manufacturing, better comply...YOU THINK?

Our Lord and Savior, the Messiah, our new KING, Heil Obama, Heil Obama, Heil Obama for he is the Second Coming
Last edit: 11 years 10 months ago by OleCowboy.

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