M4 deficincies

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10 years 8 months ago #35127 by Siscowet
M4 deficincies was created by Siscowet
Combat vets: What are your opinions on this article on the M4? Sounds pretty bad.

p.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/feb/20/c.../?page=all#pagebreak

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10 years 8 months ago #35128 by faawrenchbndr
Replied by faawrenchbndr on topic M4 deficincies
My Son-in-Law was in Atrashistan in 2008. He was a Platoon Sgt in the Army National Guard.
He stated nearly all the magazines they were being issued were wore out junk. The PX would get in PMags and they were gone as soon as they hit the shelves. I sent Ed over seven mags for his use, he gave three to guys in his unit. I asked about lube before I sent the mags, they were having good luck with Slip 2000 EWL, i sent twelve bottles of that as well.

Lots of variables not discussed in that led to that story. Barrel failure could have easily been from a squib round.

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10 years 8 months ago #35132 by Akai
Replied by Akai on topic M4 deficincies
:usa:

faawrenchbndr wrote: My Son-in-Law was in Atrashistan in 2008. He was a Platoon Sgt in the Army National Guard.
He stated nearly all the magazines they were being issued were wore out junk. The PX would get in PMags and they were gone as soon as they hit the shelves. I sent Ed over seven mags for his use, he gave three to guys in his unit. I asked about lube before I sent the mags, they were having good luck with Slip 2000 EWL, i sent twelve bottles of that as well.

Lots of variables not discussed in that led to that story. Barrel failure could have easily been from a squib round.

:usa:

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10 years 8 months ago #35151 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic M4 deficincies
An age old argument this is...

I read the entire article, if you did not then you should, well worth it.

I read a lot of talk about 'sustained rapid fire' which seems to be a issue. Albeit I am not sure what that is, my guess is full auto and just slamming mags in going till empty. Well I don't have to tell anyone here that is not easy on a gun.

Jamming: Having had my M16 jam on me where it was inop, not in the middle of a fire fight but while being over run...(looking back on that, I am sure that jam actually saved my life).

The M16 platform and its siblings was designed with a set of parameters, one of those was accuracy. As compared to the AK 47 and siblings. So loose tolerances provide less jamming (???). Perhaps its time to relook the design parameters. Maybe there is a middle ground. Our accuracy standards address 300 meter targets. IMO I think that is too far off, my guess would be a accuracy standard based upon 100 yds. Vietnam and the ME seem (as far as I know) to have been battles in which you often saw the whites of their eyes. I know in Vietnam this was certainly the case and hand to gland was not rare on the battlefield. I buttstroked and member of the OPFOR and plenty of others did also. Then there in CQC mostly in the cities, again its well inside the 100 yd envelope.

Overall I support the platform and like many I started out with the M14...lug that monster around along with 300 rds of ammo.

Spray and pray is NOT a tactic to defeat the enemy. Does it have a use? Certainly. When on patrol in the AO, the number ⅔ men in patrol are set to go full rock n roll to the left and right respectively upon any contact. This serves to pin down and get the enemy from engaging if only for a few seconds. This gives time for the rest of the patrol to seek concealment and cover and identify and return fires. So yes there is place, but to just stick you weapon up over the sandbags and squeeze off full mag and do so repeatedly. You are not engaging and killing the enemy and only emboldening them to attack harder, after all you are not even taking aim.

As for the battle of Wanat, I was stunned in reading they had setup in what was basically a soup-bowl. Every commander that had a hand in that should have been relived for cause and senior leadership should face a court martial.

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10 years 8 months ago #35154 by Siscowet
Replied by Siscowet on topic M4 deficincies
If my memory is correct, Khe Sanh was a soup bowl as well, and didn't work very well either. Or Dien Bien Phu. Think we would learn. The M4 was made to be light. Full auto and light weight equals overheating. Not enough metal for a heat sink. Old and worn out magazines will be further stressed out by excessive heat and even more prone to failure. Unless you are making your weapons out of titanium alloy, light weight and sustained full auto operation are not gonna mix. Best arguement to me to look at something newer with quick barrel change, and a piston operation to help isolate heat from the BCG and chamber.

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10 years 8 months ago #35169 by faawrenchbndr
Replied by faawrenchbndr on topic M4 deficincies
Going full retard is rarely a good thing.

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10 years 8 months ago - 10 years 8 months ago #35172 by Siscowet
Replied by Siscowet on topic M4 deficincies
This isn't aimed at anybody, I just got a kick out of the picture. And now that somebody mentioned it, decided to use it.
:rotfl:

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Last edit: 10 years 8 months ago by Siscowet.

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10 years 8 months ago #35173 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic M4 deficincies
I also see some discipline issues and inherent unit issues, when they are defending themselves just like the OPFOR, blowing off mags with no target. It was hard to read that report and not see a lot of issues with the command control structure. As a combat soldier it brought tears to my eyes just to read it.

IMO we need full investigation of that battle and my guess is a lot more. The stories I hear from soldiers is not good.

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10 years 8 months ago #35177 by jtallen83
Replied by jtallen83 on topic M4 deficincies
Where the hell was their support, artillery, air, RRF?
When my nephew explained the situations he was placed in without air support or artillery my heart dropped. We sent our men into battle with a half-hearted effort. If the support was not available then commanders had no business sending them in. Trying to blame the M-4 is a red herring argument. This war turned into exactly what Bush promised it wouldn't be, a political war.
The following user(s) said Thank You: OleCowboy

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10 years 8 months ago #35178 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic M4 deficincies

jtallen83 wrote: Where the hell was their support, artillery, air, RRF?
When my nephew explained the situations he was placed in without air support or artillery my heart dropped. We sent our men into battle with a half-hearted effort. If the support was not available then commanders had no business sending them in. Trying to blame the M-4 is a red herring argument. This war turned into exactly what Bush promised it wouldn't be, a political war.

Right off the bat there does not appear to be fire support, CAS or even a element in reserve that could be inserted.

I agree, blaming the M4 seems more like a mechanic blaming his tools for his own ineptness....

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