1st AR question

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11 years 9 months ago #16327 by Tikka3006
1st AR question was created by Tikka3006
Let me start by saying that I know there are a ton of different factors when picking a new rifle. But what I am looking for is my 1st AR10 in .308 (so I can share my bolt action ammo) and probably looking to stay around, or under, $2k.

I've been shooting for over 20 years, mainly bolt action with some lever action. So I really do not know much about he different brands and their quality. A friend of mine has a Bison Armory AR in 6.8 which I like but I just want some other opinions. Thanks.

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11 years 9 months ago #16330 by Sharkey
Replied by Sharkey on topic 1st AR question
Hello Tikka and Welcome to the site... :welcome:


Although your choice of weaponry is now excellent, your timing is not ideal. The whole country has gone crazy over ARs and ammo right now and trying to find a 308 black rifle right now for under 2k is like hunting unicorn with a treasure map and a magnifying glass.

Also, as you search, double, triple and QUADRUPLE check any and all sources that claim to have them for sale at a "good" price. People are being ripped off out there and I don't want to see another one of our members potentially throwing money for a weapon he'll never see.

It's a sellers market right now so just be careful and if you DO happen to find a deal from a good source, grab it before someone else does.

We've got some very knowledgeable members on here who are always happy to help with questions you have and also happy to learn new things so please enjoy the site and jump in any time.

Again, Welcome and good luck with your rifle search. If you find one, you'll be VERY glad you grabbed it.

Sharkey

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11 years 9 months ago - 11 years 9 months ago #16331 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic 1st AR question
Unfortunately for you, you've picked a poor time to be in the market for any sort of AR. Due to the scare, you'd be hard pressed to find a quality .308 AR for less than $2000. In the current market, I'd look at "base model" Armalites with chrome lined barrels, fixed carrying handles and plastic handguards if you're wanting to stay around $2000.

EDIT: Beat me to it, Shark. I really gotta learn to type faster.
Last edit: 11 years 9 months ago by LebbenB.

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11 years 9 months ago #16361 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic 1st AR question
I picked ArmaLite for a couple of reasons. The name has been around for a long time and that means something, now I will tell you up front is not the darling of TactiKool set, they all want new, trendy, piston, 6.8, belt fed, crew served, water cooled what ever is in FASHION and 'stylish'.

Unlike most of them I was ASSIGNED as AR, in fact till I retired I never had to buy one and while I am far from an expert on anything I got a rodeo or maybe 2 under my saddle.

So BEFORE I bought I looked at a lot. Not gonna name names, but here is the real deal: If you have a garage or access to a storage unit and you have a computer you too can go into the AR business. All you need is to come up with a KOOL name, like TactiKool MoFo engraved on the lower case order parts from your nearest Harbor Fright and run an ad and sell them like donunts at a cop convention.

Some things to be wary of: Pistons. Are they good or better than the AR system? Who knows, everyone (and this is important...when I say that that means it will be on the test later). yes everyone has their OWN piston design. How many of these companies will be around in 10 years? Are they proven? Well the GIS on the AR has been around since the 50's on MILLIONS of AR/M 16's and its still cooking, wonder why?

6.8mm! WHY? When I decided to buy one all my buddies were buying 6.8 and telling me to do same. If you have a PERSONAL reason for buying fine, kinda like Happy Meals, 'collect them all'. But if you are thinking its the new rd for the military or SOCOM is gonna adopt it, it ain't gonna happen for a LOT of reasons. But the one reason I did not chose it was simple its nothing but an underpowered .270 Winn, slightly reconfigured to make it stand alone and the purpose was for some guys to GET RICH$$$$$$$$ When SOCOM/Military adopted it...maybe if they had kept their mouth shut and were not SOCOM soldiers who knows but based upon folks I know and my research it was a scheme to make money on, nothing else. And like Paris Hilton it had its 15 min of fame.

Mil-Spec: Mil-Spec is a set of parameters that are provided to potential manufacturers on which they can produce a product that meets the specs. A CORNERSTONE of Mil-Spec is so that multiple companies can produce the components and they are INTERCHANGEABLE (that is also a test question). I WISH I had my M-1 Carbine, US Army issue that I got for $15 bucks STILL PACKED IN THE COSMOLINE. I boiled water all afternoon to melt that stuff. WHY, cause stamped on the receiver was the Manufacturer "Quaker Oats" they only made a very few at the end of the war and stopped production. While Colt, Winchester, S&W, Remington, Springfield are near household names, there is also Underwood (as in typewriter) General Motors and a lot more that jumped into building weapons for war and by using the Mil Spec the parts were interchangeable which is critical to the soldier.

If the ultimate purpose of a weapon is to defend yourself the battle tested battle proven by manufacturers that have been in business more than a few days and the mailing address is not some Suite at a Holiday Hotel...

Sidebar: There are LOTS of good and GREAT boutique manufacturers: LaRue, LMT and a couple that are highly regarded in the accuracy that provide.

Finally, good don't come cheap, and cheap don't come good. Chose wisely as that $3000 piece of weapon can become a 'used boat paddle for sale' if the company goes under, and used a plethora of proprietary parts.

best of luck in your search and we have some very knowledgable folks on here to help guide you...

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11 years 9 months ago #16422 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic 1st AR question

Some things to be wary of: Pistons. Are they good or better than the AR system? Who knows, everyone (and this is important...when I say that that means it will be on the test later). yes everyone has their OWN piston design. How many of these companies will be around in 10 years? Are they proven?

I will disagree with you (somewhat) here. A gas piston AR shines when running suppressed, used in an SBR, or if you're going to run the gun HARD.

As to each gas piston design being proprietary, I will agree with you here. But the same can be said of any .308 AR - there's no particular standard that a gun maker has to meet (The de facto standard is the SR25/M110 due to it's use by the US Army), but that doesn't necessarily mean that the gun maker is producing an inferior rifle. Armalite, for example, uses 4140 CMV steel for it's barrels. The standard (Known as a Technical Data Package or TDP) for an M4 is 4150 CMV. Does that mean an Armalite barrel is vastly inferior to an LMT barrel, which uses 4150 CMV? Not at all.

A piston AR made by a reputable company such as HK, LWRCi, POF, or Adam's Arms is as durable as it's DI counterpart. In a lot of cases, these small piston companies are pushing the envelope in materials and coatings used in building AR's versus slavishly following a standard set 60 years ago. I have no doubt that when my son is my age, he'll be able to find replacement parts for Dad's old REPR.

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11 years 9 months ago - 11 years 9 months ago #16428 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic 1st AR question

LebbenB wrote:

Some things to be wary of: Pistons. Are they good or better than the AR system? Who knows, everyone (and this is important...when I say that that means it will be on the test later). yes everyone has their OWN piston design. How many of these companies will be around in 10 years? Are they proven?

I will disagree with you (somewhat) here. A gas piston AR shines when running suppressed, used in an SBR, or if you're going to run the gun HARD.

As to each gas piston design being proprietary, I will agree with you here. But the same can be said of any .308 AR - there's no particular standard that a gun maker has to meet (The de facto standard is the SR25/M110 due to it's use by the US Army), but that doesn't necessarily mean that the gun maker is producing an inferior rifle. Armalite, for example, uses 4140 CMV steel for it's barrels. The standard (Known as a Technical Data Package or TDP) for an M4 is 4150 CMV. Does that mean an Armalite barrel is vastly inferior to an LMT barrel, which uses 4150 CMV? Not at all.

A piston AR made by a reputable company such as HK, LWRCi, POF, or Adam's Arms is as durable as it's DI counterpart. In a lot of cases, these small piston companies are pushing the envelope in materials and coatings used in building AR's versus slavishly following a standard set 60 years ago. I have no doubt that when my son is my age, he'll be able to find replacement parts for Dad's old REPR.

What I am say is this. Millions of M 16 across the world us the GIS and its worked and worked rather well for 50 years.

Hard, trust me I KNOW hard...Dak To, An Lao Valley, Au Shau Valley just name a few, I have see the barrels glow in the dark.

Bottom line is what I know is we have a system that works, is proven and done so over 50+ years...can we develop a better system, you bet, I am an engineer and know that very well. But I also know that better does not always mean better, this is NOT to say there is anything wrong at all with piston, but I personally see no need to buy it or employ it. In fact I would bet a single inventory M 16 assinged to a TO&E Training unit has more rds down range by itself than all the piston AR 15 combined....note there are weapons out there they use the piston organically, that is fine, I have no problem with it or anyone that choses to spend their money on it.

Kinda like the Colt 1911, still one of the prettiest girls and has not shortage of dates at the dance even tho she is 100+ years old...
Last edit: 11 years 9 months ago by OleCowboy.

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11 years 9 months ago #16429 by Sharkey
Replied by Sharkey on topic 1st AR question
I gotta say, my Benelli M4 12ga has dual gas pistons (ARGO system) and it is built to cook and does...

Not gonna get into anything technical cuz, well, I'm not really brainy enough for that mess. I just love my shotgun... :laugh:

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11 years 9 months ago #16430 by Siscowet
Replied by Siscowet on topic 1st AR question
:usa: This is why I like this forum. Knowledgeable experienced guys talking about my favorite rifle. They both know more than me so I am not going to get in the middle of it. There are a lot of reliable gas piston products out there, had one myself long ago, bit the GIP works well also. Just a note, the gas piston SIG 516 has been reported to have issues with M193 5.56 ball, that appears to be a design issue in that it was optimized for M855 ball pressure curve. Off thread, not 7.62, but the point is any design has to prove itself in the real world of sand and mud before it passes muster, like the AR and AK's have.

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11 years 9 months ago #16434 by OleCowboy
Replied by OleCowboy on topic 1st AR question

Siscowet wrote: :usa: This is why I like this forum. Knowledgeable experienced guys talking about my favorite rifle. They both know more than me so I am not going to get in the middle of it. There are a lot of reliable gas piston products out there, had one myself long ago, bit the GIP works well also. Just a note, the gas piston SIG 516 has been reported to have issues with M193 5.56 ball, that appears to be a design issue in that it was optimized for M855 ball pressure curve. Off thread, not 7.62, but the point is any design has to prove itself in the real world of sand and mud before it passes muster, like the AR and AK's have.

You bring up the core issue.

The gap between battlefield reliability and civilian is a mile wide at least. The orginial Stoner design was pretty damn good coming out the chute. Improving upon the design has to take place in orders of magnitude in order to apply a new way of doing business. Looking at the piston and reading what I call reliable and legit discussions I believe its MAY be a better solution, but the current solution is not broke and being marginally better on the face is not enough to make that change. It has very little of a testing cycle as it applies to the AR platform. Sure it works on several others such as the AK 47 and M1A IIRC, but that is a different platform.

For another example: Chevy just announced an ALL NEW V8. The basic design is still based upon the original 1955 265 ci V8. Yet with all the advancements in engine tech, only the Chevy v8 has retained the original push rod configuration, every other maker has used all kinds of implementations from mild to wild. Yet Chevy has stayed with a proven tech, the engine has only undergone incremental changes for over 60 years. The newst is cranking out 450 hp, 450 torque and they expect it to EPA at 26 mpg. My guess is they will tune it and put out around 650 hp/torque, slap a 100,000 warranty on it and drop it in a Z06 or ZR1 Corvette. I would bet the engine outside of Detroit is a street driven near 1000 hp and at the track can is a 1500 hp. No tricks, gimmicks and its one of the most reliable engines ever built, but still based on what many would call 50's tech.

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11 years 9 months ago #16440 by Charlie
Replied by Charlie on topic 1st AR question
I was in your exact situation about 3 years ago. I was looking for a .308 deer gun for El Kid, and we shopped Saiga, Remington R-25, various FAL clones, PTR-91 and M1A. But I once owned an FAL and an M1A, and I don't care for their scope mounts. Ditto the Saiga. The R-25 looked good until I found out it was made by Bushmaster (who was having QC issues at that time), and the PTR-91 is a weird critter at best. And so, by degrees, we became aware of the AR-10.

According to Armalite we have two local dealers, but both told me they couldn't get the rifles. Said they'd ordered them in the past and they never shipped. And they wouldn't even try! That frustrated the you-know-what out of me, but it also piqued my interest. If AR-10s were that hard to get then I definitely wanted one! So I checked GunBroker and found a stocking internet dealer in Tennessee that had oodles of them. The price was right, and when we got the kid's gun I liked it so much that I got one of my own. And that's all she wrote.

I like Armalite, and particularly the AR-10. It fits our needs for a deer and hog rifle perfectly.

Charlie

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