Please be mindful that there are many different views on the forums. The only thing we all agree on is the AR-10 is an awesome rifle!

YOU SHOULD LISTEN....

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13 years 6 months ago #7841 by crux
Replied by crux on topic Re: 1 Timothy 6
To Boykin's point: While not being strictly Marxist, socialism is still alive, well, and on the march around the globe. Socialists around the world didn't just "go away" with the collapse of the Soviet Union. They've just changed their approach. The goal is to ensure submission of the populaces of all nations to their respective centralized management. The united states was founded quite oppositely, with the government subject to the people, and that's an ongoing problem for local socialists who would rather rule the United States (openly admitted) like China, ruling by dictate, and arms when necessary.

American administrations from both political parties continue to flirt with increased centralization of power in their own way.


Now as to separation of Church and State:
It's clear that when membership with a system of belief is required or expected for political leadership, that jerks who just want power will have to work their way into that system of belief. In the historic case of the merging of Christianity and Roman Imperalism, I think one could point to many lessons about the corruption of the religion this can cause. To that end it's critical to ensure the state is not permitted to absorb or dictate matters of faith and personal conscious to the people.

That said, it must also remain neutral between belief systems to be fair, and it is simply not acceptable to assert that one must leave their faith at the door or in their bedroom when participating in our political system. In practice I think such neutrality is not really possible hence the endless swinging back and forth between people who feel threatened, either because the state may demand they or their children hold or agree with one set of beliefs or another. Certainly the more power is centralized the more problematic this becomes as people have to move beyond finding a local equilibrium and instead have to defend themselves from national imposition of ideals they may disagree with.

I'll agree that no state entity should be able to require persons to participate in a religious rite. I also agree that it should not be able to sanction people from reading their holy texts (or from having a festivus). I also have no problem with monitoring groups who spread teachings (either in religious or secular context) that advocate violence or the undermining of the security of a free state. They key is protection of the right of conscience for all citizens, which by the way also extends to the parents right to teach their children as they see fit in my view.

That said, there's a great deal of inspiration from Christianity in the framing of the US system of rights, which arguably was in the process of being secularized by some responsible for the founding, but were quite the guiding factors for many other founders who were overwhelmingly Christian.

Biblical Christianity recognizes equality before the law, the right to private property, the right to free will association, the right to conscience and to speak one's point of view boldly, the right to charity, and the right to self defence for example. It is wholly separate from worldly government however, and is designed to live under oppression just as well, if not more vibrantly (study Gospel for Asia and Voice of the Martyrs for examples), than within the freedoms it espouses.

I know there are those who hold the opinion that all systems of belief besides atheism are "Brainwashing" and "source of all conflict in the world" and that the founders despite being overwhelmingly Christians were only deists, etc... I'm sure there's nothing I can say to convince them otherwise and they have the freedom to hold their views both under the teachings of Christianity and in the principles of the Founding ideals of the US. I'm only thankful that we are not yet under the type of socialist "scientific atheist" rule that was present in the Soviet Union, still present in China and many other socialist/communist nations where you can be punished for daring to speak to a group in public about the resurrection of Christ.

Amen for the founding principles like freedom of conscience and worship, and our constitution designed to protect them. May the people not become so addled and desirous of a state shepherd that they give those principles up. And as Boykin suggests, it's up to those who recognize the criticality of those founding principles to reach out to their neighbors and advocate for it's preservation.

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13 years 5 months ago #7862 by JSteinhoff
Replied by JSteinhoff on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful comments. In review, yours and the other responses have helped me gain a new insight into the faith based concerns of possible unwarranted government interference regarding your 1st
admendment rights. I watch the PBS newshour, reasonable views from the left and the right. No yelling, crying, screaming, no bat shit crazies. At the end your
left with a balance of opinion, which respects the intelligence of the viewer.

I beleive you have well stated your need to remain ever viligant, I agree and fully respect this viewpoint.

I do differ, not in the overall message, but the choice of messenger. Many of the persons who strongly advocate for gun rights are very passionate in their support. Their respective choice of wording, however, is viewed by many to be extreme, and in some cases, distasteful or worse.

May I suggest, that supporting a more moderate messenger would be, in my view, a more effective strategy in gaining support for 2nd admendment rights!

Extremist's do not gain leverage or votes.

Regards, JS

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13 years 5 months ago - 13 years 5 months ago #7865 by Hot Lead Zapper
Replied by Hot Lead Zapper on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
If our forefathers were alive today they would most certainly be considered “extremist” by Moderates much like the Tea Party Patriots, which I’m a member. The Tea Party Patriots members are composed of many people of different cultures and religious backgrounds and have been instrumental in reshaping our government of today.

The moderate approach is a key element for our Great Nation’s down fall, which the Tea Party Patriots have worked extremely hard, to overcome. As a Tea Party Patriot member we don’t approve the flip flop standards of Moderate Republicans, Moderate Democrats, Moderate Independents, Moderate Progressives, Moderate Socialist, or Moderate Liberals. Moderate Politicians, Government Agencies, District Attorneys, and Judges will vote and/or enforce laws that violate our Constitutional Bill of Rights pending on popularity or false security to please the Moderate Progressive masses, which is coming to it’s demise.

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) W.G. Boykin served the same U.S. Military that stopped the Jewish Holocaust from the hands of the Nazis (People’s Socialist Party), which lead to the creation of another Great Nation called Israel. Since 1948 Israel has received a lot of U.S. military equipment and support with Lt. Gen. W.G. Boykin’s participation.

A few quotes from our forefathers, which would be considered “Extremist Quotes” by today’s PBS media:

Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government.
– James Madison

The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government – lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.
– Patrick Henry

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
– Thomas Jefferson

The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but the newspapers.
– Thomas Jefferson

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. – Thomas Jefferson

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
– Benjamin Franklin

Arbitrary power is most easily established on the ruins of liberty abused to licentiousness. – George Washington

Dept of Education sends SWAT to collect student loans!!!!!!


This is not about anti-law enforcement attitude but Constitutional Rights as well as public safety in general…
biggovernment.com/reasontv/2011/06/19/no...%28Big+Government%29
Last edit: 13 years 5 months ago by Hot Lead Zapper.

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13 years 5 months ago #7868 by JSteinhoff
Replied by JSteinhoff on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
The moderate approach is a key element for our Great Nation’s down fall, which the Tea Party Patriots have worked extremely hard, to overcome. As a Tea Party Patriot member we don’t approve the flip flop standards of Moderate Republicans, Moderate Democrats, Moderate Independents, Moderate Progressives, Moderate Socialist, or Moderate Liberals. Moderate Politicians, Government Agencies, District Attorneys, and Judges will vote and/or enforce laws that violate our Constitutional Bill of Rights pending on popularity or false security to please the Moderate Progressive masses, which is coming to it’s demise.

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) W.G. Boykin served the same U.S. Military that stopped the Jewish Holocaust from the hands of the Nazis (People’s Socialist Party), which lead to the creation of another Great Nation called Israel. Since 1948 Israel has received a lot of U.S. military equipment and support with Lt. Gen. W.G. Boykin’s participation

You made my point for me. Since your list contains about 80% of americans, and I will list myself somewhere between moderate, and conservative Democrat, I guess you, or your "Tea Party Patriots" would exclude me also. The Nazis party, the N.A.D.S.P, or National Socialist German Workers Party, also had a very restricted, exclusive membership. Reason and tolerance were not inclusive, and resulted in some 60 million dead.

Lt. Gen. W.G. Boykin's military service is not in question, with me anyway. Using Nazi Germany, Stalin, and Mao to imply our government is heading toward Maxism, is a far stretch at best.

I believe in the rule of law, we are a nation of laws. I would never exclude you, or your Tea Party, from a discussion, or national debate. We may disagree on many issues, that is democracy at work.

I would suggest that when you begin listing those you would exclude, you begin leaning a little closer to the N.A.D.S.P than toward being a patriot, and any such movement will lose it's credibility.

Regards, JS

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13 years 5 months ago #7870 by JSteinhoff
Replied by JSteinhoff on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
Correction, N.S.D.A.P.

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13 years 5 months ago #7871 by JSteinhoff
Replied by JSteinhoff on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
“Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius.”
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart


JS

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13 years 5 months ago #7902 by Hot Lead Zapper
Replied by Hot Lead Zapper on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....

Originally Posted by JSteinhoff
You made my point for me. Since your list contains about 80% of americans, and I will list myself somewhere between moderate, and conservative Democrat, I guess you, or your "Tea Party Patriots" would exclude me also. The Nazis party, the N.A.D.S.P, or National Socialist German Workers Party, also had a very restricted, exclusive membership. Reason and tolerance were not inclusive, and resulted in some 60 million dead.
Lt. Gen. W.G. Boykin's military service is not in question, with me anyway. Using Nazi Germany, Stalin, and Mao to imply our government is heading toward Maxism, is a far stretch at best.
I would suggest that when you begin listing those you would exclude, you begin leaning a little closer to the N.A.D.S.P than toward being a patriot, and any such movement will lose it's credibility.


The Obama Administration’s Transfer of Wealth Program, Bigger Socialist Government, and insane National debit are completely founded on Marxism fundamental principles. The Tea Party Patriot hasn’t lost credibility, but only made huge gains in the last Nov. 2, 2010 elections. Our intention is to take this Great Nation back to the Constitutional Bill of Rights, which it was founded on.

I’m not the one who referred to Lt. Gen. (Ret.) W.G. Boykin as a false prophet! I’m not the one who is acting like a wise-guy telling members try your public library, and please READ A BOOK! Nor have I excluded anyone in general.

I fail to see anywhere in my post replies that I’d excluded anyone. I simply said we don’t approve the flip flop standards of Moderates. I personally invite you to join the Tea Party Patriot. We would love to have you as a member and we will take all the time you need to debate any subject you prefer in the same open forum in comparison…!
www.teapartypatriots.org/1stBrigadeRegister.aspx



"Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death!"

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13 years 5 months ago #7903 by Hot Lead Zapper
Replied by Hot Lead Zapper on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
“My great-grandfather used to say to his wife, my great-grandmother, who in turn told her daughter, my grandmother, who repeated it to her daughter, my mother, who used to remind her daughter, my own sister, that to talk well and eloquently was a very great art, but that an equally great one was to know the right moment to stop.”

- Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

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13 years 5 months ago #7905 by JSteinhoff
Replied by JSteinhoff on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
Hot lead Zapper,

"The moderate approach is a key element for our Great Nation’s down fall, which the Tea Party Patriots have worked extremely hard, to overcome. As a Tea Party Patriot member we don’t approve the flip flop standards of Moderate Republicans, Moderate Democrats, Moderate Independents, Moderate Progressives, Moderate Socialist, or Moderate Liberals. Moderate Politicians, Government Agencies, District Attorneys, and Judges will vote and/or enforce laws that violate our Constitutional Bill of Rights pending on popularity or false security to please the Moderate Progressive masses, which is coming to it’s demise".

Hum?, ok.

I do not support burning the house down, to repair the leaking roof. We do share in the belief that our government is broken and disfunctional, in need of serious reform. We can go back and forth on democratic and republican talking points, which I think everyone has heard already, and the result would be rather pointless.

Our national debt, health care costs, unregulated banking, corporate greed,
jobs shippped overseas since the early 80's, two wars, less than 1% fighting those wars for us, shinking middle class, unemployment, lobbyist's and corruption. Every administration since Reagon shares in the blame, there is plenty to go around.

I will support anyone who is willing to roll up their sleeves, drop the destructive rhetoric, and get things done. I think america is at it's best when we ALL work together, for our common good. America has it's own dark historical chapters, we have not always been at our best.

So, I respectfully decline your kind gesture to join your party, I share little in common with it. I will watch with a wary eye, and yet hope that
some good reform is the result of your efforts.

I think it is fair to say that we all love our country, AR-10's, and no unwarranted gun restrictions! That's always a good starting point!

If you ever want to bounce a thought past a moderate, please do.

Regards,
JS

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13 years 5 months ago #7906 by JSteinhoff
Replied by JSteinhoff on topic Re: YOU SHOULD LISTEN....
Good quote, thank you!

I will take your suggestion under advisement!

Cheers,

JS

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