Thoughts on the AR-10 for "home" defense

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15 years 4 months ago #1691 by crux
I caveat first by commenting that the meaning of home defense depends upon your definition of "Home".

I had previously dismissed entirely the notion of rifles, specifically my AR-10, as a home defense weapon as the high penetration power could put neighbors at risk for some distance. I feel that still applies inside my house, despite it's block walls, it's just way more power than I want indoors, unless I could be convinced that some lower power frangible rounds would be a better mix of power/safety than my 12 gauge (I doubt it). My mental preparedness thus has been grab the pistol if there is no time, or grab the shotgun if there is time to.

Something happened the other week however that might have altered my definition of "home" and brought the AR-10, and rifles, back into consideration. Something I'd never really even considered a possibility. Specifically, a madman in a truck was tearing through the neighborhood, smashing people's yards, and chasing people. Fortunately no one was ultimately injured, but he did try several times to run a woman down, and it could have just as easily ended with serious injuries or death to innocent people. Had I been home I feel certain I would have confronted the man, as he was putting people's lives at risk. I have to ask myself, which armament would I have taken with me as a last resort when asking a madman in a truck to clam down?

If the driver couldn't be stopped with words but continued to attack, would I trust my pistol with expanding ammunition to penetrate a windshield and disable the driver if needed? I've heard windshields can really divert the energy out of those rounds in assorted ways (further observations here: www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm )

What about the shotgun with the buckshot loaded in it? My feeling is that it would only be safe/effective a lot closer than I'd like to be to ensure all the buckshot went into the attacker, and not into other non-targets. Again, what about penetration through the windshield? There's always slugs, but my home shotgun isn't really setup for precision placement of slugs. Lack of precision at range here troubles me.

My thought turns to the rifle. Be it an AR-15, AK-47, what have you. In my case an AR-10 with a reflex sight. No question of ability of the round to adequately penetrate the vehicle with reasonable power and accuracy. The precision nature also means better control of where rounds ultimately come to rest (the houses here are above the street level a bit giving a better chance of finding a safe backstop). And while the sight of any weapon carried in any visible manor might trigger an attack (not as concerned from a legal perspective here as the man was already attacking people without provocation), an AR-10 carbine hanging on a 2 point sling probably offers the best visual deterrence when compared to my pistol or shotgun. There is of course however always the worry that if one is involved even in a justifiable shooting, that you will be demonized for having such a "scary" armament. I think I have laid out sound reasoning for the selection of the tool however, and what more can you do other than stay in your home and hope he doesn't come into your living room? Of course, there's always the hazard of being seen by someone late to the scene as the aggressor. Is that worth the gamble of the more concealable pistol, or just a focus on situational awareness and readiness to put one's hands in the air?

So is that really home defense? After a fashion I think. I still would turn to the pistol and shotgun indoors, as they are least likely to endanger the neighbors. In terms of defending outside the structure however, I'm comming to think of the rifle as the tool to pick up.

Ultimately because no one was injured, and as a result I'm thankful that I wasn't home to have to be involved. I know I would feel otherwise if someone had been injured though. I also find it a downer to not only hear but see more and more people acting out under the current economic stress. My neighborhood? Really? It's most discomforting.

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15 years 4 months ago - 15 years 4 months ago #1692 by BUILDING MY SASS
Wow Crux, had to do some serious pondering on this one. My son and I sat and discussed it for better part of an hour or so, and given that incident or any thing else like it, the prelude and repercussions, you could write a book on the different possibilities to no end, with that said on-ward.
First off "home", well that all would depend on your community, where I live I would have to say that is included, not just my house, but the homes of my neighbors (at least most of them)so given the scenario that you described I would feel compelled to defend them as well.
As for the weapon of choice, in that case I would agree on the AR-10 as the primary weapon and my .45 24/7 as my backup.
The 10 would have the power to disable the vehicle and bring that point to an end, the .45 would be the follow up to either arrest him or put him down if he also had a weapon and posed a threat to you and innocent civilians. Of course, public safety is the most important factor in such an action. Then you would have to deal with the consequences of ones actions (which really sucks when you think about it) if you would have to use lethal force to defend those around you. Of course the judicial system would say, why didn't you retreat and call for help, meanwhile, people's lives are in jeopardy as a madman is rampaging the area. I myself could not sit by knowing that some is going to die, (though in that case, no one did, thank god)and be on the phone saying hurry up, NO, I would take action as dictated by His actions. I quote "Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever the cost, fight back!"
- Col. Jeff Cooper
I think that says it all, and I got on a RANT and off topic, sort of.
The combo of the 10 and the 45 would be a good outdoor combo, as far as inside or close range, the shotgun would work, (even if it is not rifled), slugs work good 0 to 30 yards quite effectively. For in the house I have considered getting a 15 for CQB and for the wife to shoot, (getting her a charter arms Pink Lady .38 special for her pistol) I wouldn't really want to let the 10 off in the house. In the house, use the pistol, less messy and destructive to your own stuff or a lower caliber rifle such as an AK or AR-15. AS for your neighbor hood, well there is always the small town America, where most of the time people lookout for one another.
BMS
Last edit: 15 years 4 months ago by BUILDING MY SASS.

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15 years 4 months ago #1698 by crux
"The 10 would have the power to disable the vehicle"

I pondered this for a while. Assuming one's aim is to disable the vehicle, how sure can one be that anything short of a .50 BMG will stop the vehicle before the driver can come after you or someone else. Tires sure, quite confident I could hit tires, but as we see on the reality cop shows that often doesn't stop determined or crazed people. I remember episodes of the A-Team where a few rounds from an AK-47 would fly open a truck's hood and bring it to a sudden halt. By nature the movies are almost always wrong, and I thought about it from a mechanical standpoint. The engine block is a huge chunk of metal that will probably survive some abuse even from a .308 (anyone know of any practical testing?). It seems to me you'd have to get lucky and hit an important component you can't see just right, like the alternator, the distributor (do new cars even have those anymore), drive belt or other vital element. Seems to me that on a bad day you could unload at the thing and just manage to not hit anything critical before someone's run over. I wonder what has been learned at check points in Iraq. I've heard checkpoint soldiers sometimes fire at the engine block, sometimes at the driver. Would be interested to know from someone who's had the unfortunate experience of having to stop a charging vehicle.

My inclination is that if the aggressor couldn't be talked out of stopping the vehicle, but instead continued to attack with it, I would focus on the driver rather than the vehicle, just as I would if they had a gun or knife. I'm just not confident that random shots at unseen components will guarantee a stop, something that worries me when people's lives are threatened. Maybe there's more data available. I'm interested in anyone else's thoughts.

Overall I guess I'm still just disturbed by the entire event. Never in a million years did I expect this sort of thing in my neighborhood. I have considered defense of home and family under various circumstances, but this one had never really come to mind. I suppose that's an element of armed defense. If you could have predicted it you probably would have avoided it and never had need of arms in the first place. More often than not I supose it's likely out of the blue, hence Cooper's discussions of the importance of situational awareness.

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15 years 4 months ago - 15 years 4 months ago #1701 by BUILDING MY SASS
I know from experience with motors, that you can take a ball-peen hammer and knock a hole in the side of a cast block, so I am relatively confident that at say 10 to 25 yards you are going to punch a hole or two in the motor, if it is aluminum that would make it easier. When you figure a .357 or .44 mag will put a hole in a block, I think a .308 would do the job, especially if you put 5 to 10 rounds into it. Oh, and yes new cars have those things (chuckle). It would not be, like you said about the movies and TV, where it blows the hood off, although a .50 cal. will, my cousin has done it (long story), but a .308 should put enough holes in the block to stop the motor in a short amount of time. Once you loose the coolant and oil or mix the two, the motor is history in a very short amount of time, depending on various factors, heat, RPMs and how hard it is being punched. I know where I can get an old engine block, I may have to give it the WILL IT test sometime this summer and post the pics.
As you said about focusing on the driver, well a .45 is going to do a number on the door and him. I have seen a 9mm go through a car door at 30 feet with no problem, so there is the alternate and still keeping a measure of public safety at hand. If I had to use my 10, I would try to get a straight on shot through the front of the vehicle, depending what it was, that way you would have the fire wall to help slow the rounds down so not to exit the rear of the vehicle and have the potential of friendly fire.
For what it's worth, that would bug the hell out of me to, if that happened in my front yard as well. It is the serious beginning of strange and dangerous times my friend, and yes Cooper's statement makes more sense everyday, "Fight Back".
As for myself I believe, BE AWARE AND BE PREPARED FOR THE UNKNOWN AS WELL AS THE KNOWN.
Where I work I see all type at all hours (graveyard shift) and I am always thinking WHAT IF, I guess a person never really knows what they will do until that moment happens, you just pray it never will, but you know what to do if it does, take them down hard and fast.
BMS
Last edit: 15 years 4 months ago by BUILDING MY SASS.

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