Greenhorn Newbie with a lot of questions...

More
12 years 9 months ago #10240 by JeffSavannah
Greenhorn Newbie with a lot of questions... was created by JeffSavannah
Hi all. I have searched the site and read everything I think has been said re: .308 vs 7.62 ammo choices for the AR10. I'm sorry to bring up some old topics again, but I have done several hours of research on this forum alone, besides hours and hours elsewhere, and I just can't seem find the answers to the following questions. I am new to this, please bear with me. As I describe in my latest "Introduction", I have a Noveske N6 (carbine, fluted) about to be in my hands sometime next week. It is the Noveske "Mod0" 7.62 NATO chambering. I have tried to learn from Noveske and all over the web about this specific chambering, and from what I've learned it is of tighter tolerance than standard NATO chambering... at least as the headspace is concerned. From my understanding it is somewhere near midway between a true match chambering and a standard NATO.. i.e. the bullet is closer to the lands and grooves.

Noveske reccomends "only quality 7.62 NATO ammunition" and that "some commercial .308 ammuntion may not function reliably due to projectile design or improperly staked primers" (just to show you I have *tried* to do my homework before asking questions, I just repeated that from memory, no cut and paste!). I've also read up and it's not like you absolutely can't shoot .308, you just have to know what you are doing. NATO ammo is obviously harder to find, so I'm trying to find a safe happy medium here. This barrel is 1:10 twist. My questions are as follows (and I'm a little more ashamed to call Noveske to ask this stuff than to ask here, so please be gentle):

1: I know that 1:10 twist will properly stabalize bullets from 150 to 190 grains. With the improper "projectile design" consideration and this modified chamber... would staying more into 165, 168, 175 grain range in quality commerical 308 tend to help assure proper functioning and safety (rupturing one in this weapon's chamber if it did not maim me would break my heart no doubt)? I plan on settling on a whitetail deer/feral hog round (would be good for zombies too), a cheap target plinker (and to get my scope on the paper), and a match round for getting as tight a group as possible on paper... so three rounds I want to find that work in this rifle after experimenting with different ones to consider as well. I want to use only reloadable brass, non-corrosive, boxed primers (of course). Any other input on projectiles, weights?
2: "improperly staked primers", I've tried (maybe not hard enough) to understand exactly what this means. I know about boxed vs. berdan primers, that has to do with reloading primarily (punching out the used primer, etc.) and the berdan primers can have quality control problems and be more sensitive to the hard strikes required in the ar10, possibly resulting in "slam fires" if they stick out too far and instead of the little dent you get from the bolt only chambering the round, it can actually detonate the primer. Is this the issue Noveske describes as "improperly staked primers"? The staking is the actual way a berdan primer is made, or is this a problem that can happen from poor quality on either boxed or berdan primers where it's just sticking out to far? - (2B[offtopic]: Noveske uses a springloaded firing pin to help prevent slamfires, is this standard with Armalite upper assemblies as well?)

3: Would getting a shop gauge be something I should do, learn to use, get the exact specs for my chamber, etc?

4: As far as "experimenting" with different brands, weights, projectile types, and even specific lot numbers to find the "rounds your rifle loves"... I pretty much see folks with 1:10 and 1:11.25 AR10's talk about 168gr everywhere I look being the "sweet spot". Should I even try anything but different versions of 168gr? Try some 175? 155? And of all the projectiles types made for game, which ones have the best (or what are the top few) terminal ballistics in targets like deer and hogs regardless of price? How much a 20 round box of ammo costs when I'm actually trying to kill something is of no concern to me. I want the best. Winchester's Silvertip in 168grain seems attractive to me. Suggestions?

I am new to AR10's, 7.62 NATO, and hunting in general. I'm 40 years old and working like a dog since I was 15, with three kids in two, I have never really had the money or the opportunity to pursue any of this even though I have been very interested in it. I'm at a point in my life where while the economy is swirling the drain, I'm actually able to do this now... and potential SHTF scenarios are no small part in why I chose the semi-auto-AR10 route to arming myself in the first place, so I apologize for being so green. I only hope those with much more experience than me here will appreciate that though I'm still learning I'm not expecting to be spoon fed, I learn fast, but I just need to get my hands on the right information from the right sources and you guys here come highly reccomended. Thank you in advance.

If anyone would give any input, even on just one particular of what I've asked, I would be very appreciative.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 9 months ago #10243 by Bob Downey
Replied by Bob Downey on topic Re: Greenhorn Newbie with a lot of questions...
B) Welcome aboard,JeffSavannah.
Lets start at the beginning.
Noveske, Nice choice. They are known for quality. A tight tolerance on your chamber is not going to terribly change what kind of American factory ammo you can chamber. They are made to the same dimensions for OAL and cartridge dimensions. Differences between a NATO cartridge and civillian cartridge has more to do with the cartridge wall thickness.
NATO has thicker brass. Primers on NATO are usually "staked" or swaged in by pressing brass over the edge of the primer to lock it in. This is done to prevent primers from rattling out under full auto. With a tight tolerance on chamber dimensions usually means they put an effort in during manufacture not to use worn out chamber reamers. Dimensions will be exact and not sloppy as some mass produced pieces often are. This can contribute to longer chamber life before a set of Go and NO-GO gages tell you the chamber is no longer safe for use. Don't expect to be able to chamber a round and not have it start to bite in to the jacket. You will see some marks in the jacket if you chamber a round and eject it without firing it. I don't recommend that on your pricy ammo. You are right to be choosey about what you buy for ammo. American NATO ammo is fine for plinking. Don't bother with foriegn trash. For hunting or self defense buy the best you can afford. Don't bother stock piling two thousand plus rounds like I read about so many doing. Put aside about two hundred rounds and the buy as needed for what ever you need for the range after that. The reason being is that carrying more than a couple hundred rounds of .308 is needless. I understand having a combat load of 300+ rounds of 5.56 but, that won't be necessary with 7.62. Besides, zombies are not going to be returning fire anyway :laugh: Since you have a carbine you might be tempted to "Go-Tactical" at the range. Don't! Take your time and break in the barrel correctly. Your carbine barrell will give you extraordinary accuracy if you treat it right from the beginning. As far as grain wieght goes start out around 168 and play up and down by about 10 grains in as close to 5 grain increments as you are able to get. You should be able to find your rifles "Sweet Spot" and what tou will soon consider your favorite factory ammo. Later you might consider handloading. There are some real experts at that here on this forum.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 9 months ago #10247 by JeffSavannah
Replied by JeffSavannah on topic Re: Greenhorn Newbie with a lot of questions...
Thanks for the welcome, Bob, and for the time you took to respond. When you say "For hunting or self defense buy the best you can afford", you mean 308 winchester *or* 7.62 NATO, correct?

And yes, I'm going to be easy on it and baby it. This rifle will be in my will and passed on to my children, hopefully with a barrel with plenty of life left. One of the reasons I chose Noveske is because of the polygonal barrel in SS that has a smoother bullet engagement with the lands and grooves and will extend the life and accuracy of the barrel. I put a lot of time deciding exactly what I wanted... not having the money for anything for a long time gave me ample opportunity... ;) Now I've seen a lot of both sides of the "barrel break in" debate... and my conclusion is that barrels are manufactured differently, and just as you suggest we should follow manufacturer's break in procedures. Noveske states their barrels do not need any involved break-in procedure, especially not the polygonal SS ones. Their methods and finishing results in a barrel ready to go... with no "burs" to smooth down or polish. Some people like to argue that "no barrel needs breaking in, just shoot the darn thing"... but barrels that are not lapped, or for whatever reason come with burs or a chrome lining that needs "final polishing" that can only be achieved by throwing copper down it I believe should be broken in with a sensible procedure. I plan on using what will amount to an involved break in, but really it's just going to be a benchrest tight group let the barrel cool between shots procedure (10 secs or so) and completely cool between five shot groups, and run a bore snake between groups as I get my scope zero'ed... more to remove heat as a factor in doing so. I will probably shoot two five shot groups like this, then change ammo, making notes and loading my magazines as needed so I'm not just sitting there waiting on the barrel cool, and walking to the target, marking off and recording the group locations, and getting some exercise in the process. At some point I'm going to practice close quarters combat skills with the iron sights, and I'll do more rapid fire. But only after I attain proficiency with the ranged scope, as taking deer and hogs will be my primary purpose for this rifle in peace time. Do you think that would suffice as a proper break-in on this rifle? Should I bring something other than the bore snake and oil... like copper solvents (or the scrubby stuff), etc... and do a periodic full cleaning in the field the first few times I shoot it? I like to hear input from anyone and everyone so feel free to suggest exactly how you would do it if it were your rifle (or anyone else that wants to chime in).

You mentioned the go no go gauge, should I get into checking each round of ammo ahead of time? Or trust "quality American" ammo and not waste the time?

And finally, do you have a suggestion for a projectile type for hunting? There are so many to choose from...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 9 months ago #10252 by Bob Downey
Replied by Bob Downey on topic Re: Greenhorn Newbie with a lot of questions...
The GO,NO-GO and field gages are for your chamber to insure that over time and high volume use your chamber does not start to fail and creat an unsafe condition.
Rarely but, from time to time American ammo will not be to spec. Having some basic tools such as a digital caliper and maybe a digital scale will be usefull on a rare occassion if you experiance trouble with a new batch of ammo.
Foriegn ammo has been cited often as being underloaded or worse occassionaly overloaded. That can be real exciting.
Foriegn ammo has also determined to be the cause of rapid bore erosion because the projectile jackets are steel that has a thin copper wash covering it.
Buying premium ammo takes most of the surprises out for the shooter. Brands like Remington, Federal and Hornady are good comforting names for me.
As for projectile choices?
Most of the favorites are soft tip or ballistic tip or hollow point types.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
12 years 9 months ago #10267 by LebbenB
Replied by LebbenB on topic Re: Greenhorn Newbie with a lot of questions...

"some commercial .308 ammuntion may not function reliably due to projectile design or improperly staked primers"

When AR makers reference projectile design, they usually have soft points in mind. Because of the exposed tip of the bullet, a little lead will rub off the bullet as the cartridge feeds into the chamber and get into it and the bore. If you regularly use SP ammo in your rifle, the Pb can build up to where it can affect the reliability and accuracy of the gun. It's also a PIA to clean out once it's built up. Ask a cowboy action shooter (or anyone else that shoots lead bullets through their pistol/revolver) about Pb in the bore.

And Noveske's a great choice. Top shelf ARs there.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.